To wish those in Israel safety in these coming times

We’re just going round in circles so let’s just leave it there

So because there are worse things in the world I should ignore people saying they wish harm on others? Because despite you trying to backtrack that is what you said.

Matthew Syed's piece. It's an interesting read.

@mouthpipette Whatever you think of Israel and the US, surely you understand the misery and destruction that's been caused by Iran over the years, within its own borders, as well as the wider Middle East?

There was an interesting article in the Times last week written by someone of the opinion that we in the West simply can't understand the mindset of the religious fanatics of Iran's leadership. They felt that Iran would indeed almost glory in knowing the missiles were heading their way, and that glorious death was imminent. There was also an interesting section about how 20,000 children were joyfully sent to their deaths in minefields during the Iran / Iraq conflict. Their point was that this regime doesn't think the way we think it does.

I think Israel would be at risk if Iran had nuclear weapons. Its become clear to me from a few threads on here recently that lots of people don't believe that's the case- I see you're one of them. I guess I think Iran has been happy to fund such atrocities as 7 October, commits awful human rights abuses on its own people, I believe the risk of them getting hold of nuclear weapons is worth avoiding. I really hope you're right and I'm wrong- or at least Iran's nuclear ambitions have been set back decades by the Israeli strikes.

I said I wish for Israelis what they wish for Palestinians, and I later clarified that to mean safety, dignity, and freedom for all. What I challenged was the expectation of unconditional sympathy from those who support or excuse the brutal treatment of others.

Anyway, stop nitpicking my words. There are far more urgent things to be morally outraged about than my post, like the ongoing starvation in Gaza.

Of course Israel would not be at risk if Iran had nuclear weapons. Firing on Israel would guarantee retaliation and the total destruction of Iran. The Iranians know that, they just want to join the nuclear club.
Whilst it's undesirable that there is yet another nuclear power in the world, Israel would be under no greater danger.
Iran trying to obtain nuclear warheads is simply being used as an excuse to bring down Iran, an Idea that has been in the mind of Israel and the US for the past 15 years. It's all part of the confected paranoia that there is an existential threat to Israel and that the nation is on the verge of being driven into the sea and therefore it is free to use whatever force it wants to counter this.

Part of Netanyahu's obscene aggression, in response to the Hamas barbarity, is his testing of the waters, to see just how far Israel can go before the rest of the world says "stop" .
To date, the deaths of tens of thousands and the devastation of a state has led to little more that a " We'd rather you didn't" from most of the western world. Oh yes, interspersed with.... "You have the right to defend yourself".

Yet another of the world's conflict where morality is subsumed by vested interests.

But you didnt just say you have no sympathy for them, you actively wished harm on them.

Personally I have sympathy for any innocent civilian who is killed, regardless of their personal views. Including Palestinians and Iranians who wish harm on Israelis. Who I assume you also have no sympathy for.

Of course I don’t know every individual’s views. But when people support or remain silent in the face of policies like collective punishment, siege, and displacement, they are complicit in a system that dehumanises others. If someone cheers on that kind of violence, I’m not going to pretend I feel the same sympathy for them as I do for those who have suffered under it for generations.

You said you wish on Israelis what they wish on Palestinians. There are a few Israelis who want Palestinians to be oppressed or killed. Ergo...

As for not feeling sympathy, how do you determine what a victim's views were before you decide whether to have sympathy for them or not?

Where did I say anyone deserves to be oppressed or killed? I didn’t. What I did say is that I have little sympathy for any Israeli who believes Palestinians deserve to be bombed, starved, displaced and killed, and then act shocked when they get a tiny taste of their own medicine.

If you support or justify the oppression of an entire population, you don’t get to cry foul when that same violence comes back around.
I want safety and dignity for everyone. But I won’t pretend to feel the same level of sympathy for those who actively uphold or excuse brutality against others.

Of course Israel are at some risk they have bombed Palestine, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen in the last month alone. No where can do that at not be at some risk.

Israel turned down an offer of protection from 57 Arab and Muslim countries in return for a Palestinian state. They have offered peace. The Israeli government don't want it. They don't do diplomacy, they drop bombs, they break international law across multiple countries, they terrorise the region with US money.

If Iran wanted to nuke Israel they would be making nukes. They aren't. Israel on the other hand, fuck knows what they have because they won't sign the NPT, they won't allow inspections. All we can go off is what we see and that is multiple breeches of International law across multiple countries across multiple years and no effort at all towards peace.

I hope everyone involved in this madness is kept safe. A bunch of blokes in a pissing fight, literally all as bad as each other. And criticism of Israel’s actions is no more anti-Jewish than criticism of Iran’s actions is anti-Muslim. It’s blokes with bombs using religion to justify a thirst for power.

Right. So if people think a certain thing they deserve to be oppressed and killed. Lovely.

Although I don't know how you impose seige on only certain people while sparing the people who have beliefs you approve of.

Incidentally, if there are Palestinians who wish death to Israelis do you also think they should be killed?

If Israelis support or tolerate a system that imposes siege, occupation, and collective punishment on Palestinians, then they should not expect the world’s outrage only when those same conditions touch Israeli lives. That double standard is what I’m calling out.

When I say I wish for Israelis what they wish for Palestinians, that’s exactly what I mean. If some wish safety, dignity, and freedom for all then I wish the same for them. But if others support or are indifferent to the brutal oppression of the Palestinians, then I don’t think it’s unreasonable to wish the same for them.

I don’t see how that’s a contradiction. If Israelis believe they deserve basic human rights then they should believe in those same human rights for the Palestinians. If they don’t then I have little sympathy for them.

Sorry, link-

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3v6w2qr12o.amp

Iran's leader is on record calling for the destruction of Israel.

The world has been aware that Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons for years. There have been sanctions. Negotiations. Inspections. And in the last week a report from the IAEA which I've linked below.

These are all facts. Reality.

Most people are able to see the possible connection between those dots... and that is the risk.

But you honestly don't believe Israel is at risk? At all?

We've gone down another mumsnet wormhole with posters arguing black is white and white is black. Dialog feels impossible.

It’s telling to call someone a “hero” while admitting he oversaw one of the worst intelligence failures in Israeli history, the devastation of Gaza, and the escalation toward regional war with Iran. If Netanyahu knows he’s to blame, as you say, then where’s the heroism in that?

He has presided over unprecedented civilian deaths, both Israeli and Palestinian, and his decisions have made Israel less safe and more isolated. What kind of hero uses endless war to cling to power while dodging corruption trials?

History won’t remember him as a hero. It will remember him as the man who chose political survival over peace, justice, and human life.

Wait, you you're saying that you wish for Israelis what they wish for Palestinians, that Israelis wish collective punishment, siege, and occupation on Palestinians, and that you wish safety, freedom, dignity, and the right to live without fear on Israelis. Doesn't really compute.

What I wish for Israelis is exactly what I wish for Palestinians. Safety, freedom, dignity, and the right to live without fear. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

The problem is that Palestinians have been denied all of those things for generations. When I said “I wish for Israelis what they wish for Palestinians,” it was a way of highlighting the double standards. If some Israelis support policies that inflict collective punishment, siege, and occupation on Palestinians, then they cannot be surprised when people question the moral ground they stand on while demanding sympathy in return.

No I can’t to be honest. Why would I sympathise with a terrorist led territory who put into action some poxy outdated vendetta on ‘Zionist’s’?
I probably would not have been so nonchalant and uncaring about Gaza if their government had not decided to be absolute bellends; that and the world refusing to acknowledge the fact Hamas is the actual problem.
Do I like to see starving kids? No of course I don’t. I just think it’s the result of despotism and not the fault of Israel defending its people.
All the pro Palestine bullshit marches when there are far more people being persecuted globally and they don’t seem to be getting the same support.
’Genocide’ is a global problem and religion is always the problem

Israel on the other hand have dropped the equivalent of 6 Hiroshimas on the tiny strip of land that is Gaza and people don't believe Israel are trying to wipe them out of existence. Make it make sense.

I don't believe Iran was trying to nuke Israel no. '3 years away' for more than 30 years and no evidence that they were even trying. That doesn't speak of a place desperate to nuke Israel out of existence.

It's their only defence

You don't believe Israel is at risk if Iran gets nuclear weapons?