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Conflict in the Middle East

People on the Madleen to be deported, awaiting court.

113 replies

Nowayyousure · 11/06/2025 05:06

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y264x3nnno

Seems some activists including G Thumberg signed to say they wanted to leave immediately and are home or on way home.

Some didn't and need to be deported to their home countries. No.idea how long court takes, assume Israel will want to.just get rid, having other more pressing matters to deal with.

Greta saying they were taken and held in the bottom of boat etc and worried for them.

What did this stunt cost in money, in court fees, to the climate in air journeys home, in wasted consular time, Sweden issued a comment on that, in talking about them rather than Gazans.

Greta Thunberg

Greta Thunberg deported, Israel says, after Gaza aid boat intercepted

The activists' yacht, which was trying to carry aid to Gaza, was intercepted by Israeli forces in the early hours of Monday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y264x3nnno

OP posts:
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Nowayyousure · 24/06/2025 14:40

1dayatatime · 19/06/2025 18:24

@SharonEllis
@Nowayyousure

"The marches going through Libya report problems too. "North African convoy for Gaza reports mistreatment in eastern Libya by Haftar forces".

I think perhaps some are realising that marching in the UK is quite different to marching through middle-east countries. Many are locked up. It's important for people to realise what freedoms we enjoy here."

"They are absolute morons with no clue about the world"

The hilarious comment at minute 11:25 from a marcher shocked to discover that Egypt is not the same as the USA!

🙄

OP posts:
quantumbutterfly · 19/06/2025 20:16

Well I could be more surprised about how that turned out. He's a bit unfair, it's not just clueless white people.

Their country's diplomats must have bruised foreheads from all the face palming.

wizard of oz toto GIF
1dayatatime · 19/06/2025 18:24

@SharonEllis
@Nowayyousure

"The marches going through Libya report problems too. "North African convoy for Gaza reports mistreatment in eastern Libya by Haftar forces".

I think perhaps some are realising that marching in the UK is quite different to marching through middle-east countries. Many are locked up. It's important for people to realise what freedoms we enjoy here."

"They are absolute morons with no clue about the world"

The hilarious comment at minute 11:25 from a marcher shocked to discover that Egypt is not the same as the USA!

SharonEllis · 19/06/2025 06:08

SomeWomanSomewhere · 19/06/2025 00:07

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I would never deny anyone that.

But calling people's moral judgement into question over something you have never personally experienced and diminishing them? No!

I have been to Tel Aviv more times than I can remember - yes, fun weekend trips to Eilat included. Used to literally go there once a month for work. But then also: to Bethlehem, Ramallah, Nablus - and from there: Beit Iba, Salem, Huwwara, Beit Furik (and from there: Beit Dajan), Awarta ... then on to Jenin and Mukhaiem Jenin (mukhaiem means refugee camp, etymologically related to khaime=tent, even though these are small cities by now). Sadly never Hebron.

And I was existentially horrified - by something I'd been sold on as "and exciting project that includes international travel".

So maybe ... just stick to "this is how I see it" (perfectly legit) and refrain from "those are useful idiots"?

Specific to the Madleen crew: French-Paleatinian MEP Rima Hassan is the daughter of refugees. She hasn't been to everywhere I have either - because she is not allowed!

Edited

I don't need to have experienced being on a convoy attempting to entire a live war zone to know its an idiotic thing to do.

SomeWomanSomewhere · 19/06/2025 00:07

SharonEllis · 18/06/2025 23:22

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about really. But I will say that being a non-Jewish zionist who has never been to Israel is not something I consider an 'admission'. Its just a number of facts. Am I only allowed opinions on places I have visited? What an odd idea. I am extremely widely travelled though and pretty knowledgeable about geopolitics so I am very confident in my judgement that those people are indeed morons.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I would never deny anyone that.

But calling people's moral judgement into question over something you have never personally experienced and diminishing them? No!

I have been to Tel Aviv more times than I can remember - yes, fun weekend trips to Eilat included. Used to literally go there once a month for work. But then also: to Bethlehem, Ramallah, Nablus - and from there: Beit Iba, Salem, Huwwara, Beit Furik (and from there: Beit Dajan), Awarta ... then on to Jenin and Mukhaiem Jenin (mukhaiem means refugee camp, etymologically related to khaime=tent, even though these are small cities by now). Sadly never Hebron.

And I was existentially horrified - by something I'd been sold on as "and exciting project that includes international travel".

So maybe ... just stick to "this is how I see it" (perfectly legit) and refrain from "those are useful idiots"?

Specific to the Madleen crew: French-Paleatinian MEP Rima Hassan is the daughter of refugees. She hasn't been to everywhere I have either - because she is not allowed!

SharonEllis · 18/06/2025 23:22

SomeWomanSomewhere · 18/06/2025 23:10

Given your recent admission on another thread that you are a non-Jewish zionist who has never been to Israel:

What makes you so confident?

Asking in my function as "have been to Tel Aviv on business dozens of times - it took one single trip to the West Bank for me to nope the hell out (and I have since also been back there).

On what data do you base your assessment?

I'm happy to pre-emptively volunteer my own "breaking point" [not my only data but that one straw that made the camel's back go "fuck it, I'm out of here"]:

Being chatted up at a bar by some random bloke. In Tel Aviv. He didn't remember me. But I remembered him. Me going "I can tell from this interaction that you don't remember me - but, ACKSHUALLY: you stuck an AR in my face just last week at Huwwara checkpoint - because I wanted to see Nablus. And you were personally cruel to the locals. And I saw it. Personally. And I don't find that sexy - now FUCK OFF!"

... and he was offended and called me all sorts of stuff.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about really. But I will say that being a non-Jewish zionist who has never been to Israel is not something I consider an 'admission'. Its just a number of facts. Am I only allowed opinions on places I have visited? What an odd idea. I am extremely widely travelled though and pretty knowledgeable about geopolitics so I am very confident in my judgement that those people are indeed morons.

HellsBalls · 18/06/2025 23:18

Yeah. That really happened.

SomeWomanSomewhere · 18/06/2025 23:10

SharonEllis · 17/06/2025 18:54

They are absolute morons with no clue about the world.

Given your recent admission on another thread that you are a non-Jewish zionist who has never been to Israel:

What makes you so confident?

Asking in my function as "have been to Tel Aviv on business dozens of times - it took one single trip to the West Bank for me to nope the hell out (and I have since also been back there).

On what data do you base your assessment?

I'm happy to pre-emptively volunteer my own "breaking point" [not my only data but that one straw that made the camel's back go "fuck it, I'm out of here"]:

Being chatted up at a bar by some random bloke. In Tel Aviv. He didn't remember me. But I remembered him. Me going "I can tell from this interaction that you don't remember me - but, ACKSHUALLY: you stuck an AR in my face just last week at Huwwara checkpoint - because I wanted to see Nablus. And you were personally cruel to the locals. And I saw it. Personally. And I don't find that sexy - now FUCK OFF!"

... and he was offended and called me all sorts of stuff.

SharonEllis · 17/06/2025 18:54

Nowayyousure · 17/06/2025 13:34

The marches going through Libya report problems too. "North African convoy for Gaza reports mistreatment in eastern Libya by Haftar forces".

I think perhaps some are realising that marching in the UK is quite different to marching through middle-east countries. Many are locked up. It's important for people to realise what freedoms we enjoy here.

They are absolute morons with no clue about the world.

Nowayyousure · 17/06/2025 13:34

The marches going through Libya report problems too. "North African convoy for Gaza reports mistreatment in eastern Libya by Haftar forces".

I think perhaps some are realising that marching in the UK is quite different to marching through middle-east countries. Many are locked up. It's important for people to realise what freedoms we enjoy here.

OP posts:
Nowayyousure · 17/06/2025 13:30

"Egypt’s foreign ministry issued a statement on Thursday instructing the organisers to apply for permission for the action and coordinate closely with embassies, citing security concerns in Sinai. "

Makes sense to plan it and check how the country you want to march through consider security concerns.

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Nowayyousure · 17/06/2025 13:27

When activists began to arrive in Cairo last Wednesday, they were met with Egyptian security forces at their hotels, who reportedly detained and questioned around 200 people.

According to the initial plan, participants were set to travel by bus to the city of al-Arish in the heavily securitised Sinai Peninsula before walking 50 kilometres towards the border with Gaza.

But following the crackdown, the march organisers were forced to change their plans and instead instructed activists to gather in Ismailia, a city northeast of Cairo.

Smith said that on Thursday, the authorities appeared to “soften”.

OP posts:
Nowayyousure · 17/06/2025 13:25

Latest statement from the march to Gaza individuals. Egypt didn't want them marching through their country. They got fed up with them apparently.

"According to Hannah Smith, a March for Gaza spokesperson who was present at the first checkpoint, the activists had been negotiating with the authorities for hours before security forces “ran out of patience and started to drag people onto buses”."

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Overington · 16/06/2025 14:59

Sorry to burst your bubble but Netanyahu will go down in history as one of the greatest leaders of our time.

He’ll be remembered all right but I doubt history will be kind.

DigitalInteractor · 16/06/2025 13:23

WoodlandLove · 16/06/2025 06:37

Palestinians lost their homeland. That's what I meant. Sorry, I was tired last night, and didn't articulate well.
Gaza is full of refugees and their descendants from what is now Israel.
I understand you feeling very sympathetic and empathetic towards Jewish people (I do too) I don't understand why it doesn't extend to Palestinians in the same way or to the same extent? I mean, you might feel empathy for Palestinians, but it doesn't seem to be equal. That's your right of course. But, I have a right to find it odd.
Your unwavering loyalty to Israel appears to have blinded you to some of the reality on the ground. I'm not an expert by any means, and I've never been to Israel/Palestine. But, some facts are easily verified by recorded statistics.
What happened on October 7th was horrific, and I condemn it without equivocation. I do think Hamas are evil. But, I also think Netanyahu and his far-right ghouls are evil - they're starving some of their fellow human beings for goodness sake!!! 😔 It's one of the worst things to have happened in our lifetimes. Please tell me you condemn them, and that you weep for the children of Gaza?
Re tribalism - well, surely Zionism is the definition of tribalism? Believing an entire country belongs to just one religion or race. I'm sure there are a kaleidoscope of opinions in Israel, as there in any population. But, some of the far-right nutters, especially the illegal settlers definitely believe they are superior, and it's a form of supremacy - definitely tribal! Humans tend to be tribal generally at this stage in our social evolution, not just Israelis.
Ultimately though of course, people are people.
I think our conversation has run its course to be honest. Online communication is so open to misunderstanding, and I'm really too sensitive to cope with it, and you seem very unwavering in your beliefs, which is absolutely your right of course, but makes my contribution to the conversation feel a bit futile.
So, if it's OK, I'll leave it there. I wish you well.

I’ll will respond to this. Not on behalf of Sharon Ellis as she may have a different view.

Gaza is also full of ‘refugees’ whose ancestors came from Egypt. Why did they not ask for their own state between 1948 and 1967? Why the constant refusal of offers since then? Many people are displaced by war all over the world and throughout history. What makes Palestinians so special they feel they have a right to demand land which they insist they have the right to kill thousands of people over, when they never had sovereignty over it, and in fact their whole identity was created to cause war over it.

I feel much less empathy for the Palestinians after watching the videos of the atrocities they carried out on Oct 7th. They seemed to be actually enjoying slaughtering and kidnapping people and they celebrated the dead bodies of Jews. I am also old enough to remember the constant suicide attacks, bombings, hostage takings, plane hijackings, massacre of the Olympic team and other terrorist attacks from the 1970s onwards against Israelis.

I feel massive sympathy to the children on both sides but Palestinian adults, not really. They are well educated. They could have chosen a different path for decades. They chose Oct 7th.

Where is the evidence of starvation. This is propaganda in the same way the 20 month ‘genocide’ in Gaza is despite the population growing in that time.

Zionism is purely the goal of an independent Jewish state in the land of their ancestors (which was actually colonised by various other Empires lastly the Ottoman Empire) where Jews need not fear persecution (aside from the rest of the world).

If you knew anything about the history of the persecution of the Jewish people, long before WW2 even, you would understand that Zionism is not tribalism but survivalism.

Sorry to burst your bubble but Netanyahu will go down in history as one of the greatest leaders of our time.

That you equate him with Hamas shows you really don’t understand what you are talking about,

Nowayyousure · 16/06/2025 12:34

This.

I don't defend settlers.

I feel for all innocents caught up in this.

Israel has a population of around 21% Palestinian Israeli so its diverse. Whereas Jewish people have been driven from their homes throughout many middle east countries which have very, if any Jewish people left, which is ignored. Many think only 'Palestinian' living in gaza ancestors lost homes and hence the give their lands back, homes back, completely ignoring Jewish people driven from various countries on the middle east because they don't matter. The Jewish people are basically in just Israel no longer spread through the middle east.

I want peace. I support Israel as a nation and their right to defend themselves and understand why other countries also support them whilst condoning any action that is illegal.

I feel many think poor Palestinian in Gaza (before the conflict even and appeared to ignore October 7th continuing to march despite a huge terrorist attack) whilst ignoring Jewish people driven from lands years ago, and its all Israel bad. Its not black and white.

OP posts:
ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 16/06/2025 10:25

SharonEllis · 15/06/2025 22:29

The Palestinians have lost their what exactly? Israel withdrew from Gaza. What did Hamas do? The trouble is people keep attacking Israel and threatening to destroy it. Israel is not being 'tribal' in refusing to allow itself to be destroyed.

The Palestinians have lost their what exactly?
Are you serious I think it would be easier to list what they haven't lost.

Israel withdrew from Gaza
Nope Gaza is still an occupied territory of Israel according to the ICJ, UN General assembly, UN Security Council, US, EU and so on

Your contempt for Palestinians is obvious in your posts whether you recognise it yourself or not

Twiglets1 · 16/06/2025 06:58

@WoodlandLove no one on these threads has defended the Settlers, to my knowledge - certainly not @SharonEllis

Equally, of course the supporters of Israel on MN do feel sorrow for the children of Gaza and for all innocent civilians ( which children are by definition).

Many of us have expressed that we don’t agree with the withholding of humanitarian aid. We’re not lacking in empathy or normal human compassion just because we mainly support Israel. Our anger is directed at Hamas not innocent Palestinians.

Better to debate the actual issues rather than question the morality of people posting on MN just because they happen to have a different opinion to you.

WoodlandLove · 16/06/2025 06:37

SharonEllis · 15/06/2025 22:29

The Palestinians have lost their what exactly? Israel withdrew from Gaza. What did Hamas do? The trouble is people keep attacking Israel and threatening to destroy it. Israel is not being 'tribal' in refusing to allow itself to be destroyed.

Palestinians lost their homeland. That's what I meant. Sorry, I was tired last night, and didn't articulate well.
Gaza is full of refugees and their descendants from what is now Israel.
I understand you feeling very sympathetic and empathetic towards Jewish people (I do too) I don't understand why it doesn't extend to Palestinians in the same way or to the same extent? I mean, you might feel empathy for Palestinians, but it doesn't seem to be equal. That's your right of course. But, I have a right to find it odd.
Your unwavering loyalty to Israel appears to have blinded you to some of the reality on the ground. I'm not an expert by any means, and I've never been to Israel/Palestine. But, some facts are easily verified by recorded statistics.
What happened on October 7th was horrific, and I condemn it without equivocation. I do think Hamas are evil. But, I also think Netanyahu and his far-right ghouls are evil - they're starving some of their fellow human beings for goodness sake!!! 😔 It's one of the worst things to have happened in our lifetimes. Please tell me you condemn them, and that you weep for the children of Gaza?
Re tribalism - well, surely Zionism is the definition of tribalism? Believing an entire country belongs to just one religion or race. I'm sure there are a kaleidoscope of opinions in Israel, as there in any population. But, some of the far-right nutters, especially the illegal settlers definitely believe they are superior, and it's a form of supremacy - definitely tribal! Humans tend to be tribal generally at this stage in our social evolution, not just Israelis.
Ultimately though of course, people are people.
I think our conversation has run its course to be honest. Online communication is so open to misunderstanding, and I'm really too sensitive to cope with it, and you seem very unwavering in your beliefs, which is absolutely your right of course, but makes my contribution to the conversation feel a bit futile.
So, if it's OK, I'll leave it there. I wish you well.

SharonEllis · 15/06/2025 22:29

WoodlandLove · 15/06/2025 22:19

I absolutely agree that diaspora Jews have been persecuted wherever they've gone (though I've read it was far worse in European Christendom than in the Islamic world) and it's terrible. I've never understood antisemitism at all.
But the problem is that Palestinians have lost theirs in the process.
I'm a simple soul, and don't understand why they can't share the land? They used to I think.
Maybe it's a problem that just doesn't have a solution, until human beings evolve to be less tribal. In the interim, I'll keep praying for peace and healing 😔🙏

The Palestinians have lost their what exactly? Israel withdrew from Gaza. What did Hamas do? The trouble is people keep attacking Israel and threatening to destroy it. Israel is not being 'tribal' in refusing to allow itself to be destroyed.

WoodlandLove · 15/06/2025 22:19

SharonEllis · 15/06/2025 22:07

Well all of this has been covered in this board today so Im not going over it again. But tell me this, where should diaspora Jews go? They have been persecuted/ murdered/ expelled across Europe and Middle East. If they are not entitled to live in their homeland, where do you think they should go?

I absolutely agree that diaspora Jews have been persecuted wherever they've gone (though I've read it was far worse in European Christendom than in the Islamic world) and it's terrible. I've never understood antisemitism at all.
But the problem is that Palestinians have lost theirs in the process.
I'm a simple soul, and don't understand why they can't share the land? They used to I think.
Maybe it's a problem that just doesn't have a solution, until human beings evolve to be less tribal. In the interim, I'll keep praying for peace and healing 😔🙏

SharonEllis · 15/06/2025 22:07

WoodlandLove · 15/06/2025 21:54

You see, I think both things can be true - obviously antisemitism exists, and I understand why, after the holocaust, beleaguered survivors wanted a safe homeland. But, as a result, the Nakba happened, leaving more traumatised human beings in its wake 😔
77 years later...
Some very well documented atrocities occured in 1948 when Palestinians were forced out of their homes. To deny that is as offensive to Palestinians, as holocaust denial is to Jews. I can, and do, feel very sorry for innocent victims on both sides of the ongoing conflict.
Re Jewish people originating from the middle-east - obviously some do, and their ancestors never left; but surely Ashkenazi Jews are European? If they have middle-eastern ancestry, it would be about 2000 years old? We probably all had ancestors from various parts of the world, but that doesn't mean we have an automatic right to those places now.
I don't know, it's just desperately sad, and seemingly intractable. I'm finding the news unbearable these days 😔

Well all of this has been covered in this board today so Im not going over it again. But tell me this, where should diaspora Jews go? They have been persecuted/ murdered/ expelled across Europe and Middle East. If they are not entitled to live in their homeland, where do you think they should go?

WoodlandLove · 15/06/2025 21:54

SharonEllis · 15/06/2025 10:40

@WoodlandLove if antisemitism is not a factor why are so many Jewish people, including children attacked and abused on UK streets, why have jewish organisations had to increase their already considerable security? Have you ever been to a literature festival where every bag was checked by security? Go to Jewish Book Week. why are Jewish organisations suddenly struggling to recruit staff, why can Jewish artists not show or sell their work in mainstream arts venues? Why did this happen after 7 October when Jewish people here are nothing to do with Israel?

Try reading Everyday Hate by Dave Rich. Don't just fall into line with easy propaganda about Israel being a white settler nation. The Jewish people are from the Middle East. Israel is a richly diverse society. All this stuff about British colonialism doesnt wash frankly. There are loads of ex colonies in Africa, I don't notice that making British people care more about them particularly. There's a saying 'no Jews, no news' which has a lot of truth to it.

You see, I think both things can be true - obviously antisemitism exists, and I understand why, after the holocaust, beleaguered survivors wanted a safe homeland. But, as a result, the Nakba happened, leaving more traumatised human beings in its wake 😔
77 years later...
Some very well documented atrocities occured in 1948 when Palestinians were forced out of their homes. To deny that is as offensive to Palestinians, as holocaust denial is to Jews. I can, and do, feel very sorry for innocent victims on both sides of the ongoing conflict.
Re Jewish people originating from the middle-east - obviously some do, and their ancestors never left; but surely Ashkenazi Jews are European? If they have middle-eastern ancestry, it would be about 2000 years old? We probably all had ancestors from various parts of the world, but that doesn't mean we have an automatic right to those places now.
I don't know, it's just desperately sad, and seemingly intractable. I'm finding the news unbearable these days 😔

EsmaCannonball · 15/06/2025 11:27

SharonEllis · 15/06/2025 07:55

Interesting. For those who dont look at it a reporter who was previously in Gaza on how since 2008 the media has complied with Hamas censorship and how that has shaped the narrative. He was running a story on Hamas militantants dressed in civilian clothing and following Hamas intervention that detail was pulled. Very relevant to the stats on deaths coming out of Gaza where combstant deaths are hidden in civilian stats.

I always find it interesting that whenever footage comes out of Gaza it predominantly features fighting age men in civilian clothing. A small, militarised terrorist state is fighting its war of all wars and yet none of these young men have been mobilised? Hmm.

SharonEllis · 15/06/2025 10:59

WoodlandLove · 15/06/2025 10:48

@SharonEllis of course antisemitism is a factor (please read my post again) it just isn't the only factor.
Obviously attacks on British Jews just going about their lives, are totally abhorrent. Much like attacks on Muslims after 9/11 were abhorrent; or attacks on Irish people during the troubles etc. It's ignorant madness to attack people just because of something other people from that religion or race have done.

Forgive me, I'm rushing now, as busy day. So, I haven't got time to respond to the rest of your post now. I will if I remember later (pathological procrastination problem, so please don't be offended if I forget! 🤭)

Its fine, Im busy too. I hope you will read tbe book I suggest, post 7 October edition.