New ceasefire agreement

And I know you are probably thinking well what's the alternative and I'll be honest I don't know . But when Israel has killed 4117 people and counting since the last ceasefire it is hard to make negotiations meaningful.

Ok I won't use the word golden.

But every Palestinian knows a permanent ceasefire is not on the cards, not one that allows them to stay in Gaza anyway. They have heard the rhetoric from Netanyahu and other ministers about their displacement.

I'm sure they also know that Hamas will not concede their weapons either.

They thereforeo do know that any ceasefire is only temporary and it for want of a better word a complete head fuck as they try to rebuild their lives only for it to be blown apart again.

I do think the deal is a lot more beneficial for the Israelis... Hostages returned and not compelled to leave Gaza or stop hostilities permanently.

I didn’t say it was a golden deal for Palestinian civilians.

It wasn’t a golden deal for the Israel side either.

But it could have been a positive step & definitely did not offer “nothing” as suggested by @Sofiewoo

I agree with you that Hamas should relinquish all power and disarm . I know in May there were articles stating they would give up power but they were never agreeable to disarmament which everyone can see is necessary.

However I don't believe that this is a golden deal for Palestinian civilians.
The last time there was a ceasefire very little aid did trickle in and most items such as tents etc were still banned.
The last ceasefire they Palestinians started making their way to what was left of their homes regrouping themselves and finding families. There was a sense of cautious optimism.

However this ceasefire was broken on 18th March with vicious airstrikes that came with no warning.

Since then 4117 people have died. The terms and conditions of the last ceasefire were very similar to this one and Israel broke that with no consequences from the international community.

You can't keep doing this psychological torture to a people already broken after 18 months. Every night thinking this is the night they will break the ceasefire. Yes you could say it is better than the current constant bombardment but is it that much better?

You mean there’s nothing in the deal for Hamas.

The deal for Palestinian civilians would have been a 60 day minimum respite from the war, an opportunity for aid to flow as freely as it did during the last ceasefire and most importantly, meaningful discussions between both sides with the help of external negotiators as to how the war could end without more loss of life.

Hamas would have needed to end their rule in Gaza and that is why they won’t accept it - preferring instead to carry on fighting.

They aren’t really new demands though. The “new” demands are basically the later stages of the earlier ceasefire which was initially agreed by all sides, which never progressed to completion.

I find it mental that anyone would think Hamas would agree to the current deal proposed by Israel and the US. What could the possibly get out of it? Israel would still control the aid so it really can’t be relied on and it could stop it again whenever it wanted, control the region and the promise of a military ceasefire was incredibly temporary. There’s really nothing in that deal for Palestine.

Things have changed since Stage 1 of the ceasefire ended. Hamas were in a stronger position then and could have negotiated a better deal than they are now able to. But they lost that opportunity, talks reached an impasse and Israel began a new airstrike. Phase 2 never started.

The Israeli prime minister's office said the action was ordered after Hamas's "repeated refusal to release our hostages" and its rejection of new ceasefire proposals by the US and mediators. Sound familiar?

Since then, Hamas have lost thousands of soldiers and most of their senior leadership based in Gaza have been hunted down and killed. Their so called allies aren't supporting them militarily and the people they rule with an iron fist are daring to protest against them when they wouldn't have dared to in the past.

When you lose a war you don't get to dictate terms.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy5klgv5zv0o

It like like the refusal came about by Hamas essentially adding new demands to the agreed conditions for cease fire therefore to all intents and purposes rejecting the ceasefire proposal without formally doing so. The end result is the same which is a real shame to all those concerned and begs the question what does Hamas want and does it really know it is as Trump says 'a mess'.

This is the US and Netanyahu not getting what they want
Of course they’re going to spout this nonsense.

Why did Israel pull out of the last ceasefire
I think it looks like the US forgets they can’t be trusted ….or maybe they really don’t care

@mids2019 these demands by Hamas are the same as the previous ceasefire agreement that both sides agreed to only for Netanyahu to backtrack after just Stage 1.
This has already been agreed
How then
Can it be so unreasonable

Well exactly
Lets not forget these ceasefires never include the West bank
No sooner do the IDF hand back Palestinian detainees as part of a ceasefire than they re arrest louds more in the West Bank. The bombing by the IDF and attacks by Israeli settlers also continue through these ceasefires.

Netanyahus plan was always to take Gaza and rename it as Israel
We all know that surely
We’ve all seen the news from September 2023
He will never agree to a ceasefire until he’s flying the Israeli flag there

Hamas agreed to the previous ceasefire.
Netanyahu reneged on it part way through refusing to continue after stage 1 which included withdrawal etc

There would be a lot more people still alive and all the hostages back home by now. Instead
He got some hostages back and then started bombing again.

Which is hardly surprising really as
it was very one sided
and
Hamas, unlike Israel, had no say in the original contents.

So I’m not surprised it wasn’t acceptable
perhaps if it was the same as stages 2 and 3 of the previous ceasefire they would have gone ahead. They’d agreed to all that

The deal on the table included Israel allowing a flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza. See Point number 3 Humanitarian Assistance on the list I posted at 2.32 this afternoon.

It was, the counter from Hamas was for a permanent ceasefire

Hamas responded to a US ceasefire proposal by saying it is prepared to release 10 living Israeli hostages and 18 dead hostages in exchange for a number of Palestinian prisoners, while requesting some amendments to the plan.
The group repeated its demands for a permanent truce, a complete Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and guarantees for the continuous flow of humanitarian aid. None of these are in the deal on the table.

@Sofiewoo It's ridiculous that you would lecture me about my viewpoint not being one "that actually wants peace".

How much peace do you think the people of Gaza are going to have now?

There are going to be many more deaths as a direct result of Hamas not accepting this ceasefire plan. But sure, go ahead and defend them.

It’s pretty reminiscent of the Arab refusals to agree on a two state solution over the last 77 years. No, No and No.

They don’t actually want peace, or the war to stop (funnily enough exactly what pro-Palestinians say about Netanyahu), because they are toast and the UN backed gravy train built on the manufactured suffering of a horrifically abused and indoctrinated people will eventually have to stop.

Netanyahu wants Hamas to be destroyed and the hostages to be released and that does not seem to be unreasonable either. Does that seem unreasonable to you?

Unfortunately, the 2 sides are still miles apart and so we will just resume more of the same thing we have seen since March.

Hamas had the opportunity to agree to a ceasefire that would enable plenty of aid into the region. Yes it was temporary and not the permanent ceasefire they wanted but the US proposal wasn't perfect for Israel either. It could have meant a stop to the fighting while further negotiations took place.

You think it’s unreasonable to ask for the ceasefire to be permanent?

Yes. It's entirely unreasonable for Hamas to think they can retain control of Gaza.
It works also be a terrible outcome for the Gazan population.

To clarify, are you envisaging Hamas remaining, and do you think this would be a reasonable outcome?

Hamas response 'sets the situation back', Netanyahu's office says

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office has released a statement about Hamas's response to the US-backed ceasefire deal.

In it, the office accuses Hamas of refusing the US ceasefire proposal and says Israel is committed to defeating the group. It also echoes the statement made a little earlier by US special envoy Steve Witkoff and says that Hamas is setting talks back.

The statement reads: "While Israel has agreed to the updated Witkoff outline for the release of our hostages, Hamas continues to adhere to its refusal.
"As the US president's special envoy for the Middle East, Steve Witkoff, said: Hamas's response is unacceptable and sets the situation back.
"Israel will continue its action for the return of our hostages and the defeat of Hamas."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c628n68zpj6t

You think it’s unreasonable to ask for the ceasefire to be permanent?
Or for aid to be free flowing and not controlled by Israel?
Or that in order for there to be an end to the war Israel would need to withdraw from Gaza?

I mean I don’t think anyone expects Israel to comply with this but I really, really don’t understand how anyone can really argue with the requests.
To give the come back in this context shy Hamas are “weaker” just suggests you think Israel have a right to do all the above points.

Thats not a viewpoint that actually wants peace.

If it wasn’t so serious I would say it’s laughable that Hamas are acting like they are in a position to impose terms.

Their position is so much weaker than it was in January, say. But they just don’t seem to get it.

So their unreasonable demands were;
"Stop firing at us, get your troops out of what's left of Gaza and let anyone apart from you, provide us with aid."

I agree with @mids2019 they are all absolutely unacceptable ( and possibly antisemitic) .

It looks like the number of hostages released is the same, I can only see that the Israeli deal said “28 hostages alive and dead” so I presume it’s the same hostages on the Hamas counter.
The key difference is the 60 day time period, allowing free flow of aid and removing the military presence from Gaza.

It does go against the idea that Israel’s main focus is the hostages and not simply both sides using that as leverage for clearly a much larger aim.
I can’t see Hamas ever accepting a permanent solution that leaves Israel in Gaza, the people of Gaza don’t want that.
I mean hard line Israelis do but surely there are enough moderates who don’t want Israel to continue to pursue and expand their occupation of Gaza.