New ceasefire agreement

Just because some don’t get much publicity doesn’t mean they shouldn’t
Atrocities should always be called out

I agree and I thought that thread was interesting.

I haven't posted on there yet but I definitely agree that UK politicians like Keir Starmer shouldn't get too dragged into this issue and yes, most people in the UK are more worried about things that affect them directly like cost of living, etc plus concerned what he is going to do about illegal immigration.

What would have happened historically if we all sat back and let such atrocities continue.

But that's exactly what happened, historically, and continues to happen now. However most don't seem to attract the attention in quite the same way.

Yes I don't agree with the settlements or with the expanding settlements just announced.

I agree
I find it a very concerning trend.
We and many countries are becoming more focused on the ‘me’ and less on the ‘us’.

Quite Trump like

I do think there is sympathy generally with Ukraine at the moment but again a bit of apathy is settling in but concerns of Russian aggression do concern the MoD.

I suppose there is an apathy towards foreign states now as we accept that international aid is much reduced because we need to divert money to defence (we need new arsenals in case of future wars).

I notice Reform do not comment on Gaza often and the conservatives don't want us to play into the hands of terrorists. Labour did not get huge Ulrich in the polls after their comments Israel in parliament...people want to know what they are doing about immigration.

I noted that no Israeli diplomats have been dispelled from the UK which is a natural action if there is serious concern about the conduct of another country. I think the government has said what it needed to say and will now concentrate on the myriad of other things on its agenda.

I do agree
but does apathy for the suffering of others just because it is not our own country make that right.
What would have happened historically if we all sat back and let such atrocities continue.

. this was written just 6 months into the current conflict

I think the silent majority view on this is maybe some apathy given that Gaza stories aren't really the top 10 of the most read on the BBC website. It is only places like this corner of mn where open discussion takes place.

There is a lot of disgruntled mutterings of the Palestinians bringing it on themselves and shouldn't we concentrating on the UK instead. I put a post on an alternative thread saying there was a bit of a political trap here if Keir Starmer puts too much political capital into this and he needs to read the room of the whole of the UK as a polotician. There is a vocal minority who are impassioned by this but a silent majority who really have a lot of other things on their mind (e.g. public sector funding cuts).

@ArtTheClown
I really wasn’t thinking of social media. People on both sides will be silent to avoid the agro.
It’s very clear across the world support for the Palestinian people and awareness of what they have been going through for many many years has been heightened.

I do agree with most of that.

Ultimately though if Israel don't allow the Palestinian statehood this whole sorry situation will be repeated with the next generation who are the traumatized children of the current conflict. Neither country will know peace.

I fear though the Israeli government have learnt nothing with the announcement of the expanding settlements in the West Bank leading to more unrest which ultimately makes life less safe for Israeli citizens also.

I did use the word "most" in regard to the Israel government not "all". There are some in the government with extreme views, unfortunately.

What I meant by inevitable is that I do believe Hamas will eventually be forced to relinquish all power and disband/disarm as you suggest.

I don't think it looks very good for Palestinian civilians under the terms of the ceasefire. It's not their fault (apart from the Hamas supporters) but they have been dragged into something very inadvisable by their government. I definitely think they will be a worse position after the war than they were before it. I don't know if Israel will ever be prepared to allow a Palestinian state but I hope they do if a more moderate government is appointed to replace Hamas.

I'm not saying I hope Palestinian civilians will be worse off after the war, I just think it likely.

That's what I think too. So many people I know have quiet sympathy for Israel but they don't say so on SM, they don't even get involved in these sort of debates on Mumsnet. They don't want the aggro.

They are not winning the war in the hearts and minds of the World.

I'm not so sure. The Hamas water-carriers are certainly loud, and very active on SM, but I think a great many people quietly support Israel and understand the existential risk they face.

What do you think the inevitable looks like though @Twiglets1 ? I know we both hope that Hamas will relinquish all power and disband/disarm. To be perfectly honest I don't care what happens to them and hope that is their inevitable.

What I am concerned about is what the inevitable looks like for Palestinian civilians under the terms of the ceasefire. If this is not done right the whole area will be condemned to repeat mistakes. Are Israel ever prepared to allow a Palestinian state with a government that do not have the aim of killing Israeli's/ Jewish people.

And I really don't think all the Israeli government don't care about killing civilians I just think there is a very loud minority faction that don't.

@Stirabout I definitely don't believe every word that comes out of Netanyahu's mouth. Or any politician for that matter. I don't believe that he had to withhold aid for as long as he chose to, for example.

But I do believe that Israel were scared about the possibility of Hamas attacking them again. Who wouldn't be, in their position? So yes, I do believe that he resumed the war for the reason given.

You say that Israel can never win this war but I think you're talking in a different sense to me - you and the people you know will never forget what you see as war crimes. I'm saying they will win the war in the more traditional meaning of the term. I believe Israel will achieve most of their objectives, possibly even all of them and Hamas won't. Hamas will lose control of Gaza and have to leave but if you want to consider that they still "won" then you're entitled to your opinion.

It's the huge number of Palestinian people getting killed (civilian heavy due to how Hamas operate) that means it is imperative for both sides to negotiate and end this war as soon as possible. Even a temporary ceasefire is better than another few hundred/thousand getting killed while the war continues. And there's always the hope that a permanent ceasefire can come out of negotiations during a temporary one.

Well as long as you don't think Hamas would ever launch another massacre on Israeli citizens out of the blue then I'm sure they can sleep easy. It's true that Hamas wouldn't have the resources to do it immediately but it seems highly likely they would do it again if they were given the opportunity to regroup (based on their stated goals).

I think we fundamentally differ in that you seem to assume that the Israel government don't care about killing civilians whereas I think most of them do but it is necessary for their army to kill civilians in their pursuit of destroying Hamas. Who hide amongst civilians in a way that in untypical in wartime.

Time will tell how this ends. I think Hamas will be forced to make substantial concessions in the end because they are losing so much power, militarily and financially. They are just dragging out the inevitable, in my opinion.

Do we always believe every word that comes out of Netanyahus mouth!
Or do we question his words and actions. Most people question the actions of others

Just because Netanyahu called the strikes ‘preemptive’ and justified them because he was scared Hamas might attack again does everyone really believe him. Why?

Its perfectly obvious the bombings had nothing to do with attacking Hamas.
He was carpet bombing civilians and nothing more
Just like when the IDF shot at delegates from various countries just for getting out of their cars and walking up the road.
Or when they shoot kids for throwing stones or playing football
It’s clear anyone that isn’t the IDF is a legitimate target.

Do you think people will forget these war crimes.
Netanyahu and his Israel can never win this war. They have already lost it !

They may be winning the war on the ground. They have the money for it but

They are not winning the war in the hearts and minds of the World.
they lost that many many months ago.
Anyone who thinks the world will look back on this war and hail the Israelis as the victors has had their head in the sand.

This is no longer and will never be a victory for the Israeli people.

Did talks stalling justify though massive overnight airstrikes that did not target any Hamas but instead were blanket bombing civilians. I personally don't think so.

I know you say that is preemptive to another October 7th but I don't think Hamas have enough power/support/resources to ever do that again (please God) but I do understand the fear of Israeli civilians that it could. It is the same torture of the unknown the Palestinians have suffered.

I know what you are saying that the victors negotiate the treaty but I don't think this is a war in the traditional sense. Unlike the wars of the early 20th century where there was fighting and then everyone went back to their own countries this is much more nuanced and has the added factor that ultimately the Israeli leader wants to clear the area out.

It is much more comparable to the Good Friday agreement where both sides had to make substantial concessions to ensure it moved forward.

I agree the deal is more beneficial for the Israelis. That is because they are the side that could be said to be “winning” the war (I know some people don’t like that expression but ultimately one side will be seen looking back to have won this war).

Also @Martymcfly24 its true that the Israel air strikes came with no warning. However the 2 sides were not in a ceasefire at the time as phase 1 had ended and phase 2 had yet to begin.

Netanyahu called them “preemptive strikes” because Israel carried the fear that Hamas would attack them again with no warning like they did on October 7th.

The talks had stalled & Hamas had rejected a US proposed ceasefire. Just like now … so what will happen next is pretty obvious.