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Conflict in the Middle East

Heartbreaking news report from Gaza - Dr receives bodies of her children

786 replies

Applenation · 24/05/2025 23:27

Many of you will already have read about this. Paediatric specialist Dr Alaa al-Najjar was on duty when the bodies of nine of her 10 children were received by her in the hospital, after a strike in Khan Younis hit her home.

This report just stopped me in my tracks. I don't know what to say beyond this. I cannot stop thinking about this poor woman tonight.

er children killed by a strike in Khan Younis. Guardian link

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38
mids2019 · 30/05/2025 07:09

Boos above

mids2019 · 30/05/2025 07:06

I don't know what the outcome of this war will be but all wars do end eventually. My concern about this conflict is the lasting view of Israel and by proxy Jews in general as some I think simply wish Gaza to be the first and last thing that is thought about by people when they are the Israeli flag (and indeed the star of David). The strengthening of anti semtism is a political aim of some in the pro Palestinian lobby and the Hasan conflict has allowed them to bring in a lot of people into this camp or be associated with it. Hamas are certainly going to the loss war and that is a given and their only hope for the survival of themselves and their genocide based ideology is to embed Israel/Jew hate as a legacy.

this is why I worry about press bias and in some even main stream papers a palpable attempt to portray the Israeli state as evil and by extension it's good pluralist society, many of whom are concerned by aspects of the current conflict. The number of posts here for instance decrying the IDF as some sort of homogenous mass of sociopathic murders is simply wrong. The IDF consists of a significant proportion of the young men and women of Israel who are fulfilling a duty of service. To try and demonize an entire army is in my opinion anti Semitic as the aim here is to leave a lasting slur against the current generation of young Jews in that force and by extension the socialising the country. There may have incidents in the heat of battle that do need investigation but that should be done in a fair judicial manner instead of a hate campaign against a country's military.

I also feel that part of the pro Palestinian light's aims is to re educate young people here in the UK about the state of Israel using the Gazan conflict as a gateway discussion into how Israel has always been 'evil' and it was founded by the forced displacement of people with the aim of embedding the anti Semitic idea that Israel is an illegitimate state and as such is the legitimate target of 'resistance' and indeed should be removed as a state. As many have pointed out this is existential for Israelis.

there is also I feel an undercurrent of Palestinians needing revenge for the Hasan conflict and the only way that revenge will manifest itself is a lasting slur against Israel. Even when the conflict ends there will be good for Israeli actors, singers and athletes, demands for arrest warrants for simply being or having been a member of the IDF, graffiti on synagogues, demands for sanctions etc. I really do think we try and look at the legacy of this conflict in terms of our society.

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 23:55

Insanityisnotastrategy · 29/05/2025 21:04

If you look at the links I shared there are testimonials from countless international Doctors claiming they have encountered children targeting and murdered. There are no testimonials from international doctors or Aid workers that refute this or defend Israel. The number of children dying and the number who have been hit by snipers makes this seem deliberate. When you combine this with comments from Israeli government figures when they say they want to occupy Gaza, they say they want to remove the population and some have defended the killing of civilians - words and actions combined.

I just wanted to highlight this. Yes there is a propaganda war but some of this is the words of Israeli government officials plus multiple children who have obviously been deliberately shot at by quadcopters (i.e. not accidental and not by Hamas). I just don't see how anyone can keep skating past and ignoring this, along with things like the West Bank settlers it paints a clear picture of what is being condoned by the Israeli government.
Yes war is always awful and there are aspects that make it worse because it's such a small and (previously) built up area with Hamas embedded with civilians. But as the war has gone on there have just been so many of these horrific incidents, it's no longer possible to look at in a reasonable way as just being propaganda/manipulation and a few bad apples. It's just not.

But it is hardly likely that people motivated to volunteer in the Gaza Strip are predisposed or inclined to defend Israel. It is self selection bias.

What actual verified evidence is there of children being shot at by quadcopters? Early in the war, Islamic Jihad misfired a rocket and hit a hospital, and everyone blamed Israel until it became obvious what it was. So I don't just accept things at face value. That doesn't mean that I am saying that these things couldn't happen, but Hamas lies and lies and lies, and even if you think the IDF does the same that does not make me suddenly believe Hamas or people oppressed by Hamas.

And yes, some of the Israeli ministers have said some terrible things. And the settlers have done some terrible things which should have been stopped. But I don't see evidence of this being systematic. Yes, you can point to incidents, some contested and others not e.g. killing of aid workers. But this war has been 600 days long and has been brutally fought in highly populated urban areas. As the war has gone on, recent months have concerned me and I hope it stops. Because I don't want innocent Palestinians to suffer any more like they are. And I am worried about Israeli society. But both sides need to want it. A lot of the escalation recently is trying to put pressure on Hamas to end the war on terms Israel can accept.

CaramelDonutFilling · 29/05/2025 23:21

CaramelDonutFilling · 26/05/2025 19:38

Gazans, bit like Afrikaners come to think of it, are either outnumbered, outsmarted or outmatched by neighbours they "struggle with" The best move is to get these groups away from their enemy neighbours..because if not this kind of thing will happen. We have been doing this since we were hunter gatherers. I saw a doc once two tribes at war, low-level stuff. Handmade weapons. Then one got guns. Went into the next village and wiped them out. This is a tale as old as time. I am sorry but I don't ever think there is going to be a two-state solution.

Most Westerners don't get is politics in the Middle East is clannish. Ancient grudges, in-group preference. Lineage stuff. Things we've mostly forgotten... or thought we left behind. It's very Old Testament.

Israel's survival basically depends on either killing its neighbours, because if it stops, it will be killed, or on liberal countries bankrolling it and even dragging them into wars. Is any of this sustainable? No.

All of this is too tragic for words and I imagine this war has probably put liberalism to bed and reintroduced old ways of being. An eye for an eye.

Anyone who doesn't think the killing of children on either side is evil I cannot understand, except actually I can, because I'm half Arab Jew, converted to Christianity as a teen, and live in the West, and this pretty much sums up my stance

And now I really hope Israel doesn't drag US (and of course, UK would follow like an obedient dog) into war with Iran. Enough war for heavens sake
Pray for peace!

YourOnMute · 29/05/2025 23:19

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 16:47

Feel free to correct me, but I had understood that the British doctors had helped injured people and heard their testimony but were not independently verifying things.

They verify the injuries they see and they've seen bombing and drones.
An American doctor testified to the UN today on patients, women and children, killed and injured by sniper fire.

Insanityisnotastrategy · 29/05/2025 21:04

If you look at the links I shared there are testimonials from countless international Doctors claiming they have encountered children targeting and murdered. There are no testimonials from international doctors or Aid workers that refute this or defend Israel. The number of children dying and the number who have been hit by snipers makes this seem deliberate. When you combine this with comments from Israeli government figures when they say they want to occupy Gaza, they say they want to remove the population and some have defended the killing of civilians - words and actions combined.

I just wanted to highlight this. Yes there is a propaganda war but some of this is the words of Israeli government officials plus multiple children who have obviously been deliberately shot at by quadcopters (i.e. not accidental and not by Hamas). I just don't see how anyone can keep skating past and ignoring this, along with things like the West Bank settlers it paints a clear picture of what is being condoned by the Israeli government.
Yes war is always awful and there are aspects that make it worse because it's such a small and (previously) built up area with Hamas embedded with civilians. But as the war has gone on there have just been so many of these horrific incidents, it's no longer possible to look at in a reasonable way as just being propaganda/manipulation and a few bad apples. It's just not.

Whatsinanamehey · 29/05/2025 20:46

I have just seen the Italian government have offered to treat Adam Najjar. The 11 year old sole sibling who survived the terrible bombing of his home.

I hope the Israeli government allow him to leave Gaza for vital treatment that he needs and can't access in Gaza right now.

RandomWordsThrownTogether · 29/05/2025 20:37

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 20:06

I appreciate your thoughtful response, and you're right that there are many Jewish voices opposed to Israeli policies - some of the most sophisticated criticism comes from Jewish intellectuals and I don't dismiss that. It is also possible for Jews to be antisemites.

But I think you're missing the deeper dynamic here. Jews have historically functioned as the nightmare of the Western imagination - the eternal scapegoat onto which societies project their anxieties and guilt. What we're seeing now is that same psychological mechanism transferred onto Zionism and Israel.

The Soviets were instrumental in reframing anti-Zionism as anti-imperialism during the Cold War, creating the ideological framework that still dominates international discourse today. They successfully transformed the Jewish national liberation movement into the symbol of Western colonialism, despite the historical absurdity of that characterization. And that Soviet propaganda was distributed far and wide in the Muslim world which developed its own antisemitism.

Look at the UN General Assembly voting patterns - Israel has been condemned more times than all other countries combined. More than Syria, which has actually used chemical weapons against civilians. More than Yemen, where Saudi Arabia has created the world's worst humanitarian crisis. More than China, which is running actual concentration camps. This isn't about proportional concern for human rights - it's about Israel serving as the vessel for international guilt and geopolitical positioning.

Israel-Palestine has become the West's passion play - the drama through which people work out their own moral anxieties about colonialism, racism, and power. Palestinian suffering matters not because Palestinians matter to these critics, but because condemning Israel allows people to demonstrate their moral purity while avoiding the harder questions about their own societies' complicity in global suffering.

The tragic irony is that this dynamic actually harms Palestinians by turning their genuine grievances into a proxy war for other people's psychological and political needs. If the international community cared about Palestinian welfare rather than using them as instruments to condemn Israel, we might actually see productive engagement rather than performative outrage. We wouldn't see Palestinians still living in refugees camps in neighbouring Muslim countries, without rights or opportunity for economic prosperity.

I'm not saying every criticism is invalid - I've acknowledged problems with Israeli conduct. But when the same people who ignore Yemen suddenly discover passionate concern for international law when Israel is involved, forgive me for questioning whether this is really about dead children or something deeper.

Honestly I could write similar stuff about the Irish - they had pseudo scientists back in the day conduct studies to say because Irish people have larger than average heads they are more akin to apes. The British monarchs and overseers made comments about the Irish potato famine being population control and forcefully removed food from Ireland at gunpoint leaving the population to starve - the population went from 9million yo 4 million. Our religion was banned, catholics property was seized, our language was banned - Ireland was persecuted for 800 years. Even today among the older generations they will
make jokes using stereotypes of wife beater alcoholics, terrorist, lower intelligence etc… I have been on the receiving end of ignorant comments in the past and once got told to go back to my own country by a charming man. Honestly I can’t complain though as these were isolated incidents and as a whole the majority of people do not behave or think like that.

The thing is we can’t use crimes that were historically committed against us as a carte blanc to do whatever we want or to harm other people. We also can’t judge people by what their ancestors did.

If you look at the links I shared there are testimonials from countless international Doctors claiming they have encountered children targeting and murdered. There are no testimonials from international doctors or Aid workers that refute this or defend Israel. The number of children dying and the number who have been hit by snipers makes this seem deliberate. When you combine this with comments from Israeli government figures when they say they want to occupy Gaza, they say they want to remove the population and some have defended the killing of civilians - words and actions combined Is why the UN and most if the leading aid agencies in the world have declared this genocide. It is not prejudice or bias that leads myself and others to this conclusion it is facts, figures, testimonials, video evidence. Netanyahu and others in the Israeli government will go down in history as war criminals.

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 20:06

I appreciate your thoughtful response, and you're right that there are many Jewish voices opposed to Israeli policies - some of the most sophisticated criticism comes from Jewish intellectuals and I don't dismiss that. It is also possible for Jews to be antisemites.

But I think you're missing the deeper dynamic here. Jews have historically functioned as the nightmare of the Western imagination - the eternal scapegoat onto which societies project their anxieties and guilt. What we're seeing now is that same psychological mechanism transferred onto Zionism and Israel.

The Soviets were instrumental in reframing anti-Zionism as anti-imperialism during the Cold War, creating the ideological framework that still dominates international discourse today. They successfully transformed the Jewish national liberation movement into the symbol of Western colonialism, despite the historical absurdity of that characterization. And that Soviet propaganda was distributed far and wide in the Muslim world which developed its own antisemitism.

Look at the UN General Assembly voting patterns - Israel has been condemned more times than all other countries combined. More than Syria, which has actually used chemical weapons against civilians. More than Yemen, where Saudi Arabia has created the world's worst humanitarian crisis. More than China, which is running actual concentration camps. This isn't about proportional concern for human rights - it's about Israel serving as the vessel for international guilt and geopolitical positioning.

Israel-Palestine has become the West's passion play - the drama through which people work out their own moral anxieties about colonialism, racism, and power. Palestinian suffering matters not because Palestinians matter to these critics, but because condemning Israel allows people to demonstrate their moral purity while avoiding the harder questions about their own societies' complicity in global suffering.

The tragic irony is that this dynamic actually harms Palestinians by turning their genuine grievances into a proxy war for other people's psychological and political needs. If the international community cared about Palestinian welfare rather than using them as instruments to condemn Israel, we might actually see productive engagement rather than performative outrage. We wouldn't see Palestinians still living in refugees camps in neighbouring Muslim countries, without rights or opportunity for economic prosperity.

I'm not saying every criticism is invalid - I've acknowledged problems with Israeli conduct. But when the same people who ignore Yemen suddenly discover passionate concern for international law when Israel is involved, forgive me for questioning whether this is really about dead children or something deeper.

RandomWordsThrownTogether · 29/05/2025 19:46

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 19:23

  1. I do not support ethnic cleansing. 2. I think that any society has the capacity to commit atrocities including Israel, but I do not believe it is doing so. The longer this war goes on, the worse things get so I hope it ends. 3. But I also think that a lot of the attention and narrative around Israel - Palestine is driven by prejudice against Jews, and think challenging that is a necessary thing to do regardless.

I find it interesting that you would think that people’s religion is what people object to rather than the circa 20k dead children and 35k adults.

If Ireland dropped bombs on another country and had that body count and people objected I would not think people opposed it because we are catholics or because we are Irish I would know it is because it is murder. When the IRA bombed British cities we saw that as murder and did not support it and when British troops shot dead kids on the streets on bloody Sunday we saw that as murder too - my British partner also condemns both acts.

There are many incredible jewish people oppose the war, are they anti Semitic or prejudice too? I personally am friends with two jewish people who are strongly opposed to Israel’s actions, both wonderful women who do not hate themselves or any other jewish person they just see this as a genocide. I know lots more jewish people who are always sharing their heartbreak at Israel’s actions on social media. Some of Israel’s biggest critics are jewish and many have written books and articles on why it is ethnic cleansing and why it is wrong.

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 19:23

RandomWordsThrownTogether · 29/05/2025 19:08

It is not prejudice to oppose mass murder, it is bigotry and prejudice that leads a country to annihilate an entire group of people.

Do you support the ethnic cleansing of Palestine or do you simply believe it is not happening despite all evidence to the contrary? I have never supported any country carrying out genocide no matter their race, ethnicity or religion - I am pretty consistent in that!

Edited
  1. I do not support ethnic cleansing. 2. I think that any society has the capacity to commit atrocities including Israel, but I do not believe it is doing so. The longer this war goes on, the worse things get so I hope it ends. 3. But I also think that a lot of the attention and narrative around Israel - Palestine is driven by prejudice against Jews, and think challenging that is a necessary thing to do regardless.
RandomWordsThrownTogether · 29/05/2025 19:08

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 18:33

You might think you are clever. You are actually just prejudiced

It is not prejudice to oppose mass murder, it is bigotry and prejudice that leads a country to annihilate an entire group of people.

Do you support the ethnic cleansing of Palestine or do you simply believe it is not happening despite all evidence to the contrary? I have never supported any country carrying out genocide no matter their race, ethnicity or religion - I am pretty consistent in that!

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 18:43

YourOnMute · 29/05/2025 16:31

On TV Jon Snow has a recent interview where he questioned an Israeli politician (I think) over boys being shot (shot on purpose that is, targeted shooting). If you'll accept that because the interviewee couldn't deny it.
But a quick google shows: A 12 year old was also shot in April in a public space. Over a hundred were shot in public awaiting food in February 24, another person was shot in a public square in January 24. The paramedics shot. Journalists wearing their blue Press vests.
Israel admitted shooting a teenager in April.
I see most on SM and I'll dox myself (if I share from sm)...but they're there. And quite easy to find.
The poor people starving were shot recently as well. Shot on purpose. Shot into.

Hi thank you for your response. I have looked up the incident on Feb 24 and it is at least contested. While the IDF may have fired shots, it was also claimed that victims were rolled over by tanks and shot at by helicopter/drones without any evidence of this. The idf claimed that most deaths were due to a crush in the crowd, and this hasn't been disproved. But even if all those incidents are true exactly as you say, it doesn't prove anything other than this is a terrible awful war where mistakes have been made and no doubt isolated incidents of idf soldiers breaking the law. This happens with any army. It certainly doesn't prove systematic intent, which is what is being claimed. War is hell.

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 18:33

RandomWordsThrownTogether · 29/05/2025 18:15

Hilarious you take offence at someone using your own words with a different group named. Honestly IDF have killed countless more women and children than Hamas - Hamas are evil but the IDF are a hundred times worse! Shooting babies in the head is other level evil.

You might think you are clever. You are actually just prejudiced

RandomWordsThrownTogether · 29/05/2025 18:15

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 18:04

"However much you may support Israel, please take into account that the IDF are an evil fascist entity who murder children in the streets for the crime of being a different ethnicity to them.

The IDF have billions of pounds and companies such as microsoft to aid them in their propaganda war, they have their own dedicated AI for creative fake images and videos, they have multiple apps and websites encouraging people to post in their favour on social media accounts and how to defend their position. Interestingly despite the documented evidence they are paying huge money to manipulate social media there are no accounts of international doctors or aid workers defending their actions". ### wow, your paranoia shows up your hatred.

Hilarious you take offence at someone using your own words with a different group named. Honestly IDF have killed countless more women and children than Hamas - Hamas are evil but the IDF are a hundred times worse! Shooting babies in the head is other level evil.

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 18:04

"However much you may support Israel, please take into account that the IDF are an evil fascist entity who murder children in the streets for the crime of being a different ethnicity to them.

The IDF have billions of pounds and companies such as microsoft to aid them in their propaganda war, they have their own dedicated AI for creative fake images and videos, they have multiple apps and websites encouraging people to post in their favour on social media accounts and how to defend their position. Interestingly despite the documented evidence they are paying huge money to manipulate social media there are no accounts of international doctors or aid workers defending their actions". ### wow, your paranoia shows up your hatred.

AIBUHere · 29/05/2025 17:36

RandomWordsThrownTogether · 29/05/2025 17:04

However much you may support Israel, please take into account that the IDF are an evil fascist entity who murder children in the streets for the crime of being a different ethnicity to them.

The IDF have billions of pounds and companies such as microsoft to aid them in their propaganda war, they have their own dedicated AI for creative fake images and videos, they have multiple apps and websites encouraging people to post in their favour on social media accounts and how to defend their position. Interestingly despite the documented evidence they are paying huge money to manipulate social media there are no accounts of international doctors or aid workers defending their actions.

So all the young primarily Jewish men and women who make up the evil, fascist entity of the IDF, are gleefully going round murdering Arab Muslim children in Israel too then because they are a different ethnicity to them?

What about the Israeli Arab Muslims who are also part of the IDF? Are they evil, fascists who want to kill fellow Arab Muslims?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37895021.amp

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/28/arabs-bedouin-idf-muslim-hamas-palestinians-jews-army/

https://www.sar-el.org/israels-highest-ranking-muslim-soldier-speaks-out/

https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-809892

How some posters are getting away with posting such disgusting propaganda is shocking.

Gadsar soldiers at a checkpoint near Jenin

Israel's Arab soldiers who fight for the Jewish state - BBC News

A look at the Arab soldiers choosing to serve in Israel's army despite intense criticism back home.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37895021.amp

AIBUHere · 29/05/2025 17:13

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 16:47

Feel free to correct me, but I had understood that the British doctors had helped injured people and heard their testimony but were not independently verifying things.

Correct. They will of course report what they’re told, they have an obligation to.

Still no verifiable video evidence of the IDF sniping children and considering how many allegations have been made there must be at least one.

I would have no problem changing my mind and agreeing the IDF, as a military entity primarily made up of young Jewish men and women, are evil, psychopathic monsters (and totally different from any other countries armies) and Israel is hell bent on destroying itself on a global stage (while fighting for its survival) if there was.

RandomWordsThrownTogether · 29/05/2025 17:06

Insanityisnotastrategy · 29/05/2025 17:00

An example from one doctor's testimony.

"We [were] operating on children who would say: 'I was lying on the ground after a bomb had dropped and this quadcopter came down and hovered over me and shot me.' "

Do Hamas use quadcopters?

Edited

Nope, the Israelis are using man operated drones to shoot kids in the streets! If the bomb doesn’t kill them first the IDF drone operator finishes the kids off.

RandomWordsThrownTogether · 29/05/2025 17:04

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 16:09

However much you may support the Palestinians, please take into account that Hamas are an evil fascist entity who oppress their own people and dominate all aspects of civil society. Doctors, kids and other people, even if they (or their parents) are not Hamas supporters will still know what to they are required to say...

This is a propaganda war.

However much you may support Israel, please take into account that the IDF are an evil fascist entity who murder children in the streets for the crime of being a different ethnicity to them.

The IDF have billions of pounds and companies such as microsoft to aid them in their propaganda war, they have their own dedicated AI for creative fake images and videos, they have multiple apps and websites encouraging people to post in their favour on social media accounts and how to defend their position. Interestingly despite the documented evidence they are paying huge money to manipulate social media there are no accounts of international doctors or aid workers defending their actions.

Insanityisnotastrategy · 29/05/2025 17:00

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 16:11

Can you please specify what targeted action you mean and what evidence?

An example from one doctor's testimony.

"We [were] operating on children who would say: 'I was lying on the ground after a bomb had dropped and this quadcopter came down and hovered over me and shot me.' "

Do Hamas use quadcopters?

Insanityisnotastrategy · 29/05/2025 16:58

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 16:11

Can you please specify what targeted action you mean and what evidence?

The post previous to mine covers it pretty well.

AIBUHere · 29/05/2025 16:52

Why was my post deleted?

Is it against MN guidelines to say that Hamas’s only real weapon against Israel is propaganda and it’s not rocket science to deduce that they use their own people for that (and their supporters) seeing as they control and have indoctrinated the people in Gaza and have openly said they want the blood of Palestinians to ignite and carry on their cause, they don’t care how many die, and protection of Gazan civilians is not their responsibility despite being the governing body of Gaza?

What other real weapon do they have, or have ever had, against the military strength and technology of Israel? Thats not even pro-Israel it’s a simple fact.

They have also openly said this is a religious war and they will not stop fighting until there is Islamic superiority throughout the land which means the annihilation of the only Jewish state.

Would anyone like to refute that and state why they reported my post and they find the truth offensive?

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 16:47

YourOnMute · 29/05/2025 16:32

Does this apply to British doctors there?

Feel free to correct me, but I had understood that the British doctors had helped injured people and heard their testimony but were not independently verifying things.

YourOnMute · 29/05/2025 16:32

Biscuitsformeandyou · 29/05/2025 16:09

However much you may support the Palestinians, please take into account that Hamas are an evil fascist entity who oppress their own people and dominate all aspects of civil society. Doctors, kids and other people, even if they (or their parents) are not Hamas supporters will still know what to they are required to say...

This is a propaganda war.

Does this apply to British doctors there?

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