Israeli movements against Settlements?

Read the thread, I'm not wasting my time with you. Enjoy google. Goodnight!

Yes, Hamas should surrender.

And Israel should demolish the illegal settlements (which do, of course, long pre-date 7/10).

Why did you feel the need to bring up the holocaust? Surely you could have put across your point without doing that?

Well said.

A convenient way of ignoring the point I am making.

I expected it!

Are you saying someone from Texas has more right to Palestinian territory than Palestinians whose families have been there for generations?

And now we have the Holocaust Inversion, loud and clear... what with the refusal to admit Hamas should just surrender and the bot watchers I think this thread is essentially over.
@BaitalI suggest you Google Holocaust Inversion.

What do you think was the argument for creating Israel in the first place? In what way are they indistinguishable? What are the arguments for both you're referring to?

Thank you.

Mumsnet will well know I'm not a troll as I post a lot on other forums too and as you say, frequently do criticise Israel too where I think the IDF have gone too far or where Israeli people are extremists like the Settlers and I'm no fan of Netanyahu.

Twiglets has been around for ages.

They frequently criticize Israel. They don't same the same thing over and over.

I've reported your post for troll hunting because being wrong isn't actually against guidelines 😉

Seems a strange aspect of their lives to focus on but ok.

Also, why do the settlers always have really gross homes. They are always so dirty.

I always wonder why they trash the land so much but are they just really messy as people? :/

The settlers' worldview is essentially indistinguishable from the argument for creating the state of Israel in the first place, so it's hardly surprising that there isn't a lot of active opposition to the settler movement in mainstream Israeli society.

The Settlers are not Israel. They are a group of extremists and I sympathise with the Palestinian people having to put up with them but they aren't representative of the whole of Israel.

Can you point to any post on Mumsnet where you have criticised Hamas?

I watched the settlers documentary last night. It was very subtle but extremely telling. The views of people in Israel have been warped by those in power but they definitely do hold these views in majority.

People have known this for years and the vast majority of the UK public sympathise with the Palestinian people. Their experience of apartheid was so apparent in the documentary. There is no way this cannot be apartheid.

We need to really distance ourselves from Israel. It's nothing like the UK. Just lots of hillbillies from America.

@Twiglets1 So you’re telling me that, in your eyes, I am not criticising Hamas enough? I think it’s simplistic to only criticise Hamas because it isn’t a sovereign state. Israel is. And yet Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian territory, continuing to annex Palestine etc., there has been many displaced Palestinians, homes destroyed, lives lost and Israel has been doing so for decades without the existence of Hamas. So no I don’t think it’s enough to simply criticise Hamas as though it’s Hamas and nothing else that has caused death and destruction. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would realise that.

I think if Hamas surrendered, handed over governance of Gaza to the PA, and returned the hostages then a few things would happen-

-there would be immense international pressure for an immediate ceasefire. With all war aims 'achieved' it would be very very difficult for Israel to continue the carnage. This would be a good thing, no?

-I think there would actually be a ceasefire, yes. Even if you don't believe they would actually ceasefire, surely you could agree that the chances of a ceasefire if Hamas surrendered are higher? That's a good thing, no?

-the actual day to day lives of Gazans would immediately improve. More aid would get in. Less bombs would be dropped. They wouldn't be under curfew or be in danger of being murdered for protesting. This is desirable, no?

-the hostages could be back with their families. Good thing, yes?

-it would get the ball rolling on a peace process that would most likely involve a lot less violence all round, the pulling back of settlements, etc. Even if you don't believe Israel would do all the good things you'd like, there's at least a higher chance of it while the 2 sides are not at actual war, no? Good thing, no?

I cannot understand why you wouldn't want these things?

All these things start with Hamas fucking off. They've commited to repeating October 7 again and again. Israel have commited to destroying them for this reason ( and to save Netanyahu's political skin ).

Why on earth shouldn't Hamas just end it?

What is so hard to understand about "you could easily criticise both sides, why don't you?"

To break it down even more, why do not criticise Hamas on here?

@Twiglets1 You’re not making any sense. Why don’t I do what exactly? Please explain what I am meant to be doing.

@dairydebris Do you think Israel will stop if Hamas surrenders? Or do you think they will still claim that Hamas is in some random village in the guise to destroy it, bomb residential buildings etc. and that Hamas, according to them, is still there? It’s not a matter of Hamas staying or leaving. There will still be illegal settlements. So now it seems to me that to keep on asking if Hamas should stay is being deliberately disingenuous because I never said they should stay. It’s not up to me decide. The Israeli law itself does not provide adequate provisions for Palestinians. They are allowed to be legally detained for days on end by the Israeli military according to Israeli law.

The IDF gets loads more criticism on these boards than Hamas, including from you. So if you could easily criticise both sides, why don't you?

@Twiglets1 I can easily criticise both Hamas and the IDF but it seems as though only Hamas is the only focus when it comes to the lack of democracy. I don’t think the absence of Hamas will miraculously stop Israel’s annexation plans. Israel has not agreed to a two-state solution so even if Hamas were to not exist, would Israel stick to the border lines? Would villages stop being bulldozed? Will the olive trees that have been burnt and farmland destroyed and illegal settlements that have been created, will all that be returned? So that’s why I think both the Israeli and Hamas leadership should be investigated by the ICC. And I don’t think it’s simple as it being “Hamas first”.

It's hard to understand why you don't just say Hamas should surrender first. As in, now. Even Abbas is calling for it. Palestinian citizens are protesting for it. Why can't you say it?

Yes, Netanyahu should be investigated by the ICC. There should also be a very thorough investigation into the intelligence failures that made October 7th possible. And his corruption charges should also be allowed to proceed through the courts. As a lot of us have repeatly said on here, all extremists are abhorrent, including Israeli ones. Speaking for myself the longer the Israeli government gives voice to these extreme voices the more moral high ground it loses, and I don't believe it has much left. There's near constant critism for the current administration and their current direction.

Why does any of that mean Hamas shouldn't surrender and hand over the hostages and running of Gaza right now? Do you think they should stay?