To think someone has got to stop the mass killings in Gaza

I certainly think that's a point worthy of consideration. One problem is that we can always say "YOU STARTED IT!" based on which point in the conflict we choose to go from. So I've pointed out that the Oct 7th attack was a reaction to the 1967 occupation, so it's Israel's fault. You've in turn pointed out that Israel's seizure of the "buffer zone" areas in 1967 was made necessary by Palestinian hostility before that, so it's actually the Palestinians' fault.

We could play this game all day. But unlike a lot of such political games, in this one there is actually an ultimate, right answer. Palestine was a functioning region of the Ottoman Empire for centuries, with (like other regions and countries) a majority religion defined by its majority population and space for religious and ethnic minorities as well. The first thing to change that and turn it into a battleground between two separate ethnicities that had to have their own state excluding the other, was the Zionist project from the late 19th century and then the actions by Britain to encourage that project as a separatist aspiration, to tolerate the driving of native Palestinians off their lands etc.

This gave rise to the 1948 war. That gave rise (as you rightly point out) to anti-Israeli resentment and violence by Palestinians. That gave rise to the 1967 occupation. That gave rise to the intifada and Hamas. That gave rise to Oct 7th...

Now I'm NOT saying that this means the answer is to obliterate Israel and try to recreate the Palestine of the 19th century. I'm saying we can gain a better understanding of the Palestinians' attitudes and actions within the conflict by admitting, honestly and realisitically, the original genesis of the WHOLE conflict which was visited upon them, which was not of their doing.

Especially seeing as the Palestinian ‘cause’ is to annihilate Israel and wipe out the Jews?

That's not the "Palestinian" cause. Plenty of Palestinians just want to be left in peace to get on with their lives. That's the cause of the particular subset of Palestinians who have reacted to the situation in the most violently extreme manner. Any situation where one country illegally occupies and oppresses another people is going to provoke a range of reactions like that among those people.

But it's quite handy for the untra-Zionist element within Israel, who see themselves as having the ultimate right to rule ALL of Palestine and would happily just wipe out any remaining vestige of Arab/muslim Palestine that stands in their way. Because they've always got an excuse to justify their violent oppression of the occupied territories, all of which is only necessary because they initiated the settler colonial project in the first place.

I know that if posters were actually Pro Israel they would be loudly advocating for an end to the settlements to keep everyone safer. I know that if Israel were actually trying to keep their citizens safe they wouldn't be ploughing more and more money into helping them steal homes and settle in land that isn't theirs. Instead the lure of free land and stolen resources wins out.

Before 7/10 50-75% of IDF members on active duty were in the OPT protecting the people Israel pay to steal and live on free land. Only a third were dealing with Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah etc. So Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah etc the ones who are a threat to Israels very existence apparently, got less resources than throwing Palestinians out of their homes and policing people collecting rainwater. Seems a bit wrong to me and something that all of the people who care so deeply about Israels existence that they dedicate hours of their lives here typing in their defence might have wanted to pipe up about.

It wasn't claimed that it was an "independent state". The regions of the Ottoman Empire didn't work that way, they were a hangover from the age of empire into the age of the nation state. Yet somehow all the others - Transjordan, Syria etc. - had their mandates fulfilled and the political infrastructure to function as an independent state created (based on the will of their peoples as a whole) by the end of the second world war. All except Palestine.

Palestinian people lived in the area, most of whom were Arab muslims with significant Christian and jewish minorities.

Wow that’s some serious revisionism.

In 1948 the Palestinians were forcibly removed from their houses, many of whom had previously welcomed refugees fleeing persecution. It was a place where multiple religions coexisted! Read The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Professor Ilan Pape - there are photos, evidence etc…

Blurb from the book page “Between 1947 and 1949, over 400 Palestinian villages were deliberately destroyed, civilians were massacred and around a million men, women, and children were expelled from their homes at gunpoint. Denied for almost six decades, had it happened today it could only have been called 'ethnic cleansing'”

It details how 93% of the cultivated land was owned by arabs and christians so to create a jewish state they had to use force. Before they invaded the zionist leaders drew up detailed maps with details of what was owned by what ethnicity, they bought a small amount of land but the rest was seized. Villages were razed with important historical buildings destroyed, these were not just arab villages but also christian ones! Men were murdered, women were raped, churches and mosques levels, orchards destroyed. It details how Israel was formed through violence and has expanded it’s borders decade after decade through violence.

The region of Palestine has been recognised in historical records since about the 5th century BCE, and records from that time referenced the state of Philistia having existed from the 12th century BCE. Names and boundaries change, but the land was not an empty desert devoid of civilisation, culture and progress. People lived there and thrived there before the establishment of the state of Israel.

Which map shows Palestine as an independent state prior to 1940? Arabs and Jews and Christians lived in the area. Not 'Palestinian people'. You know that.

Palestine prior to the establishment of the state of Israel was not an empty or destitute land. It had thriving communities, was considered to have comparable development to other countries in the Middle East, it had industrial and commercial regions as well as rural, higher literacy rates among Palestinian Arabs than were found in some neighbouring countries, its own airline, etc.

It was defined as a Class A Mandate, meaning that it was considered to "... have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory." (Quote from the League of Nations). It was the only Class A Mandate not to be independent by the mid-1940s.

It was not perfect. There are many things that can be criticised about it. But it was not empty. It was not a land without a people.

One group developed mainly desert lands and built a thriving country. Another group previously Arabs spent the time since the 1940's attacking and killing the other group.

One group built a very necessary defence system. Another group didn't.

One group is given billions in aid and so had health and education funded by the west but their terrorist leaders and others threw it all away.in years of hatred. Look at Germany and Japan at the end of the second world war. They built and developed and emerged better. Some just go back.to the 40s like a stuck record never wanting better, others build and move forward.

Imagine if other countries said in the year x we lost x therefore we will hate forever. Good grief most of them weren't born in the 40s but useful westerners keep the mantra going.

They were justified in retaliating against the biggest attack on Jews since the Holocaust don’t you think? Although I agree the IDF are going too far now.

The massacre was out of the blue however you dress it up.

You're right, you don't know.

I don't know. Most attacks against Israelis happen in the OPT. Do pro Israel people ever consider that maybe if Israels government didn't encourage their citizens to live in other people's homes and land there would be a lot less need for defence? It takes a lot to defend 10% of your population living on stolen land, that seems to be the price they are willing to pay for free property though.

And Palestinian terrorist groups have taken hostages, killed hundreds and injured thousands of innocent Israelis and Jews over the years before October 7th. Palestinian terrorist groups, their ruling parties and their financial and military backers have killed, injured and oppressed many more thousands of innocent Palestinians over the years in their own territories.

The constant denial that Palestinian terrorist groups and ruling authorities have any agency or accountability for inflicting such terrible hardship upon the people they claim to be fighting for and positing that the only possible path forward is an uncompromisingly violent and divisive one are reductive and infantilising to all the people involved.

I also always find it quite perverse that people use the argument that more Palestinians are killed than Israelis as proof as Israel’s evil.

Do they even consider that without Israel’s economy, intelligence services and security measures, as well as a highly trained and well equipped army that may not be the case?

I mean what do they think would have happened if Israel lost the war in 1948 when they were attacked as a fledgling nation by SIX established Arab countries, didn’t even have a proper army and were outnumbered in population by 1:67?

I mean with all the support and funding from the surrounding Arab countries, why didn’t the Arabs/Palestinians have a more equal footing? Israel started with nothing but mainly desert in 1948 but we are led to believe the Palestinians were there long before them as it is ‘their land’.

There were more Arabs in the region originally.

Nothing to do with having different ideologies I suppose?

Well that didn’t come out of the blue either:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence

Oh look they’ve even got their own Wiki page just for terrorism against Israel, including a list of notable attacks, not sure how many less notable ones haven’t been included. The list of different groups involved is quite large too.

Anyone would think Israel’s security concerns that led to the ‘oppression’ of Palestinians happened in a vacuum.

There's no logic. Just hatred.

But they’ve killed, detained and oppressed thousands of Palestinians over the years before Oct 7, not out of the blue.

This.

It was vile.

Surely the only people who want this war are extremists.
The people killed on 7/10 were mostly peaceniks, did you hear Naama trying to talk to her captors, she worked with Hands of Peace.
The extremists who want to eradicate Israel breed the extremists within Israel. Iran's puppets don't want peace between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, and too many people are bringing that conflict to innocent Jewish people in the UK.

Nothing justifies the massacre of civilians since Oct 7th either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg55q1w58jo

Netanyahu 'allowed' it.....it's all his fault apparently.

I thought the funding came from Qatar?

Although I’m sure a lot of Israeli tax payers money had been spent providing medical care, water, electricity and WiFi to Palestinians?

Well there is that.

Lots of people were wanging on about it being all Netanyahu's fault because apparently he created/funded hamas, of course they could have used the funds to create an egalitarian society but that wasn't their priority.

She sees Oct 7th as not being the ‘start of hostilities’ which I agree that it wasn’t, but she’s totally ignored, as usual, the glaringly obvious reason why Israel had had to take the security measures it has to protect its citizens since 1948.

It’s almost as if decades of Arab wars/Palestinian terrorism was a figment of Israel’s imagination, and just propaganda!

Do you think attacks like Oct 7th wouldn’t have happened if Israel had fucked off out of their business and said, it’s fine, all Palestinians are free to come into Israel and do what they like @JunkShopper?

Especially seeing as the Palestinian ‘cause’ is to annihilate Israel and wipe out the Jews?

You can’t keep pretending it was to have their own State alongside Israel because they would have had one by now if that’s all they wanted surely?