Page 19 | To think someone has got to stop the mass killings in Gaza

BotanicalCake · 2025-04-03T20:34:29+00:00

We are back to hundreds of Gazans being killed each day after the so called ceasefire and over 50,000 now slaughtered, mostly women and children. The bombing of hospitals, schools and 'safe zones' not being enough, they are now picking off paramedics. How much depravity is the world going to tolerate? AIBU to suggest that the world leaders complicit in Netanyahu's genocide should all stand before the Hague? [[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/03/the-guardian-view-on-israels-killing-of-paramedics-a-new-atrocity-in-an-unending-conflict https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/03/the-guardian-view-on-israels-killing-of-paramedics-a-new-atrocity-in-an-unending-conflict]]

TempestTost · 05/04/2025 22:55

Ohdearieme2025 · 05/04/2025 07:10

yes it very much is when the action criticised is Jewish people daring to fucking fight back after vicious degraded monstrous terrorists raped and murdered their CHILDREN.

On 7th October there was a ceasefire. On 8th October, after long term planning, violent, degraded filth strapped go pros to themselves to film themselves slaughtering, raping and murdering women and children and men at a music festival. THIS IS WHY THEY ARE AT WAR.

When Hamas, the degraded monstrous terrorists who took babies hostage and then strangled them to death, who forced their captives to leave through a seething crowd of hateful terrorists, who forced their captives to thank their rapist captors for presents they gave them when leaving, when Hamas surrender completely unconditionally and give back the murdered bodies of the hostages they kidnapped then and only then will the war end.

To demand that Jewish people submit to the vicious degraded monstrous murderous filth that started a war against them out of nowhere is very much anti semitic and ONLY a Jew hater would demand that.

But you already know that.

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You can't justify the killing of person A because some person B in the same group went out and killed someone. It doesn't matter how horrible and evil person B was, that doesn't mean that person A is fair game.

War is clearly much more complicated than that, especially this kind of war - realistically, civilians will be killed.

But what people are upset about is the perception that you and others like you believe the actions of people like the ones you are talking about mean it is ok to target people those who haven't done those things, including children. Do you really think that because Hamas has murdered infants that it is justified for Israel to target infants? Because that is what it sounds like you are saying.

Trying to call anyone who disagrees with that anti-Semitic just sounds crazy.

TempestTost · 05/04/2025 22:45

Mylegishangingoff · 05/04/2025 01:07

You agree that Israel value life when they have killed more children than all other conflicts in the world combined in the last 4 years? You agree that Israel value life when they are preventing life saving medical care from reaching Gaza? You agree Israel value life when in 2023 prior to Oct 7 they had already killed 10s of Palestinian children the youngest just a toddler along with 100s of adults? If that's what 'valuing life' looks like to you I have to wonder if you think there is any value in Palestinian lives at all because to agree that denying life saving aid and burning children to death as they shelter in tents is what 'valuing life' looks like is shocking.

What exactly do you think would happen if Hamas didn't exist? Israels military occupation of Gaza precedes Hamas. It existed before why would it not exist after especially when Netanyahu is so anti a two state solution and so pro colonisation that he quit in disgust when Israelis were paid to leave their settlements Gaza in 2005.

Palestinians live in the West Bank too, what would getting rid of Hamas do for those Palestinians? Would they all live happily ever after, would they get their homes and land back from the Israeli settlers? Would the daily violent attacks from Israeli settlers against Palestinians stop? Would their children stop getting shot at and carted off to administrative detention to be kept without charge and abused?

I'd love to hear how exactly you think Palestinians destroying Hamas would solve these issues? I know there's a lot of questions there so you can start with the West Bank, what would life look like for Palestinians in the West Bank if Hamas were destroyed?

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I think that Hamas is an extremist group that will never settle for any kind of agreement with Israel, no matter how good it is for the Palestinian people. In fact, I think they would be quite willing to sacrifice any number of their people if they think it would help them destroy Israel.

Palestinians deserve better, but as long as they are led by these people, there is no way forward. Hamas will continue to carry out acts such as the one that kicked off this instantiation of the conflict and screw up every attempt at a negotiation or agreement, just as they always have.

Gansy · 05/04/2025 22:32

Some of them were.

Gloriia · 05/04/2025 21:58

Fingernailbiter · 05/04/2025 21:32

For a start, the IRA were not the government of Ireland.

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Also, I don't think the ira wanted to wipe out the whole of the English population as hamas want to be rid of all Jews, it was more gang warfare in NI under the guise of being a political protest.

Fingernailbiter · 05/04/2025 21:32

Martymcfly24 · 05/04/2025 10:54

Why not?

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For a start, the IRA were not the government of Ireland.

Twiglets1 · 05/04/2025 19:54

Yes @Martymcfly24 I know full well that some people suggest that if Hamas just release the hostages that will end the war.

You dispute it, but you never explain why. You never acknowledge that Hamas need to be destroyed in addition to the hostages being released.

Presumably you don't think they do because you seem to find it unreasonable that Natanyahu wants more than just the hostages to be released.

Clavinova · 05/04/2025 19:54

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice
That’s because phase 2 was supposed to be negotiated during phase 1 and phase 3 negotiated during phase 2. So ofc there was no formal signed and sealed document laying out the exact terms of phase 2 or 3.

Well, quite.

However, what I said was true- Hamas had agreed that the PA would take over Gaza in phase 3 and only Israel disagreed

In your first post you said;

They did surrender already with the 3 phase ceasefire that Israel agreed...

Also what a random Hamas official Hamdan says is as unimportant as what say Herzog or Cornricus say regarding the IDF and Israel. These are not the decision makers.

But you believe everything that your Hamas official says? When do you think Hamas will disarm?

Also, if Hamas had already come to an agreement with the PA, why are there still reports like this at the end of Feb;

Senior Arab diplomats have told The Times of Israel that Hamas has indicated willingness to relinquish governing control of Gaza, but is not prepared to give up its weapons — which [a senior adviser to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas] said the PA would not accept.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/top-abbas-aide-hamas-must-step-aside-let-palestinian-authority-govern-gaza/

Martymcfly24 · 05/04/2025 19:49

Twiglets1 · 05/04/2025 19:40

You did not explain why, you just keep asking people what they think about Netanyahu saying he wouldn't end the war even if all the hostages are released.

You're trying to score points by saying to people, even if the hostages were released, Natanyahu still wouldn't bring the war to an end.

You never explain why not ...or what else he is requiring ... or whether you think that is reasonable or not.

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Oh crikey I'm out.

I have explained it. (I even underlined the word for you) .

Twiglets1 · 05/04/2025 19:40

Martymcfly24 · 05/04/2025 19:21

Yeah no still irrelevant.

Posters stated just release the hostages and the massacres (actually that was my word they said war ) will stop.
I said no that there was an indication that a hostage release would not end hostilities and explained why.

I'm not worried about what Netanyahu thinks (that will be for war crime courts afterwards thank goodness)

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You did not explain why, you just keep asking people what they think about Netanyahu saying he wouldn't end the war even if all the hostages are released.

You're trying to score points by saying to people, even if the hostages were released, Natanyahu still wouldn't bring the war to an end.

You never explain why not ...or what else he is requiring ... or whether you think that is reasonable or not.

Martymcfly24 · 05/04/2025 19:21

Twiglets1 · 05/04/2025 19:00

It isn't irrelevant. You keep asking people on multiple threads what they think about Netanyahu saying he wouldn't end the war even if all the hostages are released.

So I'm pointing out that it seems reasonable enough for him to think that Hamas need to be destroyed in addition to the hostages being released. Seeing as they are a terrorist organisation, don't recognise Israel's right to exist and carried out a massacre of their civilians in October 2023.

What is unreasonable about that?

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Yeah no still irrelevant.

Posters stated just release the hostages and the massacres (actually that was my word they said war ) will stop.
I said no that there was an indication that a hostage release would not end hostilities and explained why.

I'm not worried about what Netanyahu thinks (that will be for war crime courts afterwards thank goodness)

Twiglets1 · 05/04/2025 19:00

Martymcfly24 · 05/04/2025 18:28

As interesting as all that is it is completely irrelevant to the question I posed in relation to the statement if the hostages are freed the war will end with no other extenuation conditions or factors.

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It isn't irrelevant. You keep asking people on multiple threads what they think about Netanyahu saying he wouldn't end the war even if all the hostages are released.

So I'm pointing out that it seems reasonable enough for him to think that Hamas need to be destroyed in addition to the hostages being released. Seeing as they are a terrorist organisation, don't recognise Israel's right to exist and carried out a massacre of their civilians in October 2023.

What is unreasonable about that?

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 05/04/2025 18:59

Gloriia · 05/04/2025 18:21

Yes you can see a convoy of ambulances and then you can hear shots. That's all that the clip shows?

Anything could've happened, 90% of the clip is darkness.

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You can also hear the shooters talking in Hebrew.
The investigation analysed the geo location and time of the video and it matches when the convoy went.
The vehicles shown in the video match the destroyed ones found. It also all matches satellite photos taken of the area and the vehicles that shows as they destroyed and vehicles and buried them and the bodies after dawn…so some was caught by satellite,
The voices of the paramedics have been idenfied as belonging to the bodies found.
The video was found on the mobile phone with the body of one of the paramedics killed (it was his phone) in the shallow grave that IDF admitted they had dug and bulldozed the bodies into.
IDF has already admitted to killing them. The video shows someone in the ranks lied about the vehicles not having their lights on, and not being clearly marked as rescue humanitarian and UN vehicles. They lied about the personnel not wearing their Red Cross/crescent uniforms, UN uniform and fire fighter uniforms, they lied about killing terrorists as part of the group,

The investigation also found that the area was declared an evacuation zone over an hour after they’d shot and killed everyone.

The investigation included US journalists - NY Times and Sky News- these are not Hamas propagandists or apologists.

The video also corroborates the one survivor of the convoy eye witness testimony.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 05/04/2025 18:50

Clavinova · 05/04/2025 18:28

As seen above, Hamas & everyone else had agreed to it

Well, your second link says this;

The diplomats and officials stressed the ideas that had emerged from the UAE talks lacked detail and had not been distilled into a formal, written plan nor adopted by any government.

Your third link says this;

Officials in the PA acknowledged that the agreement does not guarantee the Palestinian [Authority] any involvement in the Strip.

Wiki summarises the phase 3 oversight as follows
Hamas would not rebuild its military capabilities

Your first link is dated 17 Feb 2025 - the same date as this CNN article in which a different Hamas official says this;

Hamdan also said the idea of Hamas disarming is not up for discussion. The group “was not erased” by the war, he said, adding that it will regroup and continue “and I am telling you, we have an opportunity to expand.”

Hamdan added that the region should retain the ability “to slap Israel whenever it wants… as we proved on October 7,”

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/02/17/middleeast/hamas-will-not-disarm-gaza-israel-intl/index.

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That’s because phase 2 was supposed to be negotiated during phase 1 and phase 3 negotiated during phase 2. So ofc there was no formal signed and sealed document laying out the exact terms of phase 2 or 3.

However, what I said was true- Hamas had agreed that the PA would take over Gaza in phase 3 and only Israel disagreed.

Also what a random Hamas official Hamdam says is as unimportant as what say Herzog or Cornricus say regarding the IDF and Israel. These are not the decision makers.

Gansy · 05/04/2025 18:35

Gloriia · 05/04/2025 18:23

I'm not brainwashed merely pointing out that Hamas make shit up. All the time.

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You are @Gloriia, brainwashed. Intent on discrediting any evidence or outlet which speaks against Israeli violence, and believe anything old rush which supports the violence.

Clavinova · 05/04/2025 18:28

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 05/04/2025 17:38

It was reported in the press that they agreed to it:
Hamas will ‘accept PA governing Gaza’ under ceasefire deal
17 Feb 2025
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/hamas-accept-pa-governing-gaza-ceasefire-rch26gjt

It was also not Hamas’ idea but the mediators including the US and UAE:
UAE in talks with US, Israel about provisional government for post-war Gaza
7 Jan 2025
https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/article-836444

the Palestinian Authority agreed to it as well
*Palestinian Authority 'Ready to Take Full Responsibility for Gaza Strip,' Despite Not Being Party to Cease-fire Agreement
18 Jan 2025
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-01-18/ty-article/.premium/palestinian-authority-ready-to-take-full-responsibility-for-gaza-strip/00000194-79cc-dce1-a396-fded13bb0000

Wiki summarises the phase 3 oversight as follows
”Third stage
In this stage, Hamas would have released all the remains of deceased Israeli captives, in exchange for Israel releasing the remains of deceased Palestinian bodies that it holds.[158] Israel would end the blockade of the Gaza Strip and Hamas would not rebuild its military capabilities.[15]
Supervision and guarantors
Initially, it was proposed that activities in the Gaza Strip would be supervised by Egypt, Qatar, and the United Nations,[158] who along with the United States would guarantee the proposal and its provisions. As of February 2025, the government of Israel continued to insist that in its implementation of the "second-phase" (see supra) of the peace deal, the Gaza Strip must be de-militarized and that the Palestinian Authority (PA) was in no position to govern the Gaza Strip.[159]”

As seen above, Hamas & everyone else had agreed to it, so it would have happened if Israel had chosen to move on to phase 2 and then phase 3…but instead they chose to re-start the war

“On the early morning of 18 March 2025, during Ramadan, Israel conducted a surprise offensive of "extensive" airstrikes on Gaza, thereby shattering the almost two-month truce.[408][43] Israeli forces acknowledged that they were "conducting extensive strikes", and separately stated that their attack "plan was kept in closed circles in the IDF to create an element of surprise and deception."[409][410]…..”

Israeli journalist Barak Ravid argued that while journalists described the resumption of airstrikes as being a result of a "collapse", the ceasefire was deliberately collapsed by the Israeli government itself:
https://news.walla.co.il/item/3735371

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As seen above, Hamas & everyone else had agreed to it

Well, your second link says this;

The diplomats and officials stressed the ideas that had emerged from the UAE talks lacked detail and had not been distilled into a formal, written plan nor adopted by any government.

Your third link says this;

Officials in the PA acknowledged that the agreement does not guarantee the Palestinian [Authority] any involvement in the Strip.

Wiki summarises the phase 3 oversight as follows
Hamas would not rebuild its military capabilities

Your first link is dated 17 Feb 2025 - the same date as this CNN article in which a different Hamas official says this;

Hamdan also said the idea of Hamas disarming is not up for discussion. The group “was not erased” by the war, he said, adding that it will regroup and continue “and I am telling you, we have an opportunity to expand.”

Hamdan added that the region should retain the ability “to slap Israel whenever it wants… as we proved on October 7,”

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/02/17/middleeast/hamas-will-not-disarm-gaza-israel-intl/index.

Martymcfly24 · 05/04/2025 18:28

Twiglets1 · 05/04/2025 17:03

Netanyahu hasn't changed his position on what it will take for the war to end.

He said back in May 2024, “Israel’s conditions for ending the war have not changed: the destruction of Hamas’s military and governing capabilities, the freeing of all hostages and ensuring that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel.

Seems reasonable that Hamas would have to be destroyed, don't you agree? They are a terrorist organisation after all, don't recognise Israel's right to exist and carried out a massacre of their civilians in October 2023.

www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/01/no-end-to-gaza-war-until-destruction-of-hamas-says-netanyahu-israel

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As interesting as all that is it is completely irrelevant to the question I posed in relation to the statement if the hostages are freed the war will end with no other extenuation conditions or factors.

Gloriia · 05/04/2025 18:23

Gansy · 05/04/2025 18:18

I remember that being investigated and concluded as untrue. The IDF even acknowledged it.

You’re bent in believing anything that support the Israeli govts aims. Brainwashed.

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I'm not brainwashed merely pointing out that Hamas make shit up. All the time.

Gloriia · 05/04/2025 18:21

Cris1976 · 05/04/2025 18:16

If anyone is in any doubt…. Watch this…. Be warned it’s a hard watch (the last moments of the paramedics).

z

It looks like they were outright murdered by the most ‘moral’ army in the world.

The lying f@cktards even said the vehicles were unmarked without flashing lights. You can’t believe a single thing that comes out of the mouths of these Zionists from day 1 (remember all those beheaded babies?).

The death of one Zionist is a tragedy …. The death of 50,000 Palestinians is a statistic.

Yes you can see a convoy of ambulances and then you can hear shots. That's all that the clip shows?

Anything could've happened, 90% of the clip is darkness.

Comedycook · 05/04/2025 18:19

Cris1976 · 05/04/2025 18:16

If anyone is in any doubt…. Watch this…. Be warned it’s a hard watch (the last moments of the paramedics).

z

It looks like they were outright murdered by the most ‘moral’ army in the world.

The lying f@cktards even said the vehicles were unmarked without flashing lights. You can’t believe a single thing that comes out of the mouths of these Zionists from day 1 (remember all those beheaded babies?).

The death of one Zionist is a tragedy …. The death of 50,000 Palestinians is a statistic.

What's your definition of the term Zionist?

Gansy · 05/04/2025 18:18

Gloriia · 05/04/2025 18:14

Remember IDF allegedly bombed a hospital and killed 500 yet it turned out it was some palestinian group's rocket misfired and the death toll wasn't verified. Hamas make stuff up.

I remember that being investigated and concluded as untrue. The IDF even acknowledged it.

You’re bent in believing anything that support the Israeli govts aims. Brainwashed.

user1471516498 · 05/04/2025 18:16

It seems like a lot of people are conflating sympathy with Palestinian civilians with support of Hamas. I mean yes, it is true that Hamas was voted into power in 2006, but a lot of the population were not eligible to vote then, and of those who were, I would very much doubt that people expected that they would not get another vote for 20 years!

As far as I can see, the civilians on both sides are victims in this, and on both sides, the leaders are acting in their own interests rather than in the best interests of their populations.

Cris1976 · 05/04/2025 18:16

If anyone is in any doubt…. Watch this…. Be warned it’s a hard watch (the last moments of the paramedics).

z

It looks like they were outright murdered by the most ‘moral’ army in the world.

The lying f@cktards even said the vehicles were unmarked without flashing lights. You can’t believe a single thing that comes out of the mouths of these Zionists from day 1 (remember all those beheaded babies?).

The death of one Zionist is a tragedy …. The death of 50,000 Palestinians is a statistic.

Gansy · 05/04/2025 18:16

cindyhove · 05/04/2025 17:54

Well you have got yourself in a tizzy because there are those of us who disagree with you and know the actual truth rather than the crappy bbc reporting.

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What tizzy are you actually referring to then. You’ll notice I’m not the one legging it around Mumsnet to set up counter threads. That’s you. You need corral posts because evidence much of what you post.

Gloriia · 05/04/2025 18:14

Remember IDF allegedly bombed a hospital and killed 500 yet it turned out it was some palestinian group's rocket misfired and the death toll wasn't verified. Hamas make stuff up.

Gloriia · 05/04/2025 18:12

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 05/04/2025 18:11

But they are rounded up within Gaza or trapped in a hospital/school/tents and then shot or bombed in cold blood,

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Says who, Hamas?