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Conflict in the Middle East

To think someone has got to stop the mass killings in Gaza

658 replies

BotanicalCake · 03/04/2025 21:34

We are back to hundreds of Gazans being killed each day after the so called ceasefire and over 50,000 now slaughtered, mostly women and children.
The bombing of hospitals, schools and 'safe zones' not being enough, they are now picking off paramedics. How much depravity is the world going to tolerate?

AIBU to suggest that the world leaders complicit in Netanyahu's genocide should all stand before the Hague?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/03/the-guardian-view-on-israels-killing-of-paramedics-a-new-atrocity-in-an-unending-conflict

The Guardian view on Israel’s killing of paramedics: a new atrocity in an unending conflict | Editorial

Editorial: Impunity over Palestinian deaths in Gaza will lead to further cases like this massacre of rescue and healthcare workers

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/03/the-guardian-view-on-israels-killing-of-paramedics-a-new-atrocity-in-an-unending-conflict

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EasyTouch · 28/05/2025 14:35

Scirocco · 11/04/2025 08:41

The region of Palestine has been recognised in historical records since about the 5th century BCE, and records from that time referenced the state of Philistia having existed from the 12th century BCE. Names and boundaries change, but the land was not an empty desert devoid of civilisation, culture and progress. People lived there and thrived there before the establishment of the state of Israel.

And Judea before that.
And "Palestinians" (from the time it was named so by the Romans up until when the last Jew left Gaza as part of the deal for autonomy)has never been a Jewless place.

A lot of people are under the anti Semitic impression that Arabs did not colonise "Palestine", Muslims were there first, was Jew free until a bunch of Ashkenazi Jews who managed to survive/avoid the gas chambers turned up to "steal" a land that they had no ties to and is not the provenance of its Diaspora.
And even though so many "Palestinians" have Lebanese roots, there is not a strong worldwide narrative proclaiming that they have no right in Palestine.

And of course Islam has no provenance in Palestine/Israel. How can it? It's the baby of the three Abrahamic religions with Judaism being the far far older grandfather.
Islam is an AD religion. Judaism is a BC religion.

It's Islamism, not Arabicism that is the relatively younger factor in the Middle East/Levantine turmoil.

However, it is the East to West Middle Eastern Islamic colonialism, then the East to West Islamic Ottoman European/Middle East double down colonialism that has wrought the most destruction to Indigenous Arab/non Arab cultures and progress in the Middle East.

Twiglets1 · 28/05/2025 13:02

SharonEllis · 28/05/2025 11:28

Not a cynic, a conspiracy theorist. How dare you blame Israel for what Hamas did?

Agree. It's despicable when people attempt to blame Israel for their citizens getting massacred on October 7th.

Letmecallyouback · 28/05/2025 12:19

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SharonEllis · 28/05/2025 11:28

Letmecallyouback · 28/05/2025 11:04

More to the point why did it take the IDF hours to turn up? A cynic might wonder if that was a tactical decision to justify the subsequent turning of Gaza to dust and finally realising Netanyahu's long held dream of a ‘Greater Israel’ map where the Gaza Strip doesn’t exist.

Edited

Not a cynic, a conspiracy theorist. How dare you blame Israel for what Hamas did?

Letmecallyouback · 28/05/2025 11:04

nicpic71 · 28/05/2025 10:44

Hmm, there is no hate speech here. Obviously what Hamas did was awful but what is happening now is beyond awful. Why were warnings of an attack ignored? Before Oct 7th. The attack has emboldened Netanyahu to do what he has always wanted to do.

More to the point why did it take the IDF hours to turn up? A cynic might wonder if that was a tactical decision to justify the subsequent turning of Gaza to dust and finally realising Netanyahu's long held dream of a ‘Greater Israel’ map where the Gaza Strip doesn’t exist.

nicpic71 · 28/05/2025 10:44

Ohdearieme2025 · 05/04/2025 05:32

On the 7th October there was a cease fire. On the 8th of October Hamas terrorists put Go Pros on and went out to rape and murder Jewish women, children and men. They strangled babies to death that they were holding hostage. They had planned this carefully.

When they finally were forced to start releasing hostages they made them walk through a baying mob of terrorists screaming abuse at them. They made them thank their rapist captors and gave them gift bags as they were leaving.

When they surrender, unconditionally, and release any remaining dead bodies and live hostages then the war that they chose to start and carefully planned to slaughter civilians in will be over.

In no other circumstances would the people who were savagely raped and murdered during a cease fire, who had a war started against them, be told to lay down their arms and trust the people who raped, murdered and slaughtered them out of the blue and filmed it on Go Pros.

I am reporting this thread for anti semitic hate speech.

Edited

Hmm, there is no hate speech here. Obviously what Hamas did was awful but what is happening now is beyond awful. Why were warnings of an attack ignored? Before Oct 7th. The attack has emboldened Netanyahu to do what he has always wanted to do.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 14/04/2025 19:53

I think people don’t realise that Temple Mont is 45 acres big at the top. It is massive!

It had a very large manned fort, full royal palace, pagan temple, Jewish temple, loads of shrines, courtyards and gardens, and an olive tree forest.

To get an idea of just how big it is, a typical urban 45 acre plot is big enough for: “Peabody’s wider masterplan for the 45-acre Dagenham Green site includes 3,500 homes, an urban park, a lake, children’s play areas, community gardens and other green spaces along with a new secondary school and a medical centre.” https://www.building.co.uk/news/peabody-and-hill-strike-116m-deal-with-btr-operator-as-part-of-3500-home-dagenham-scheme/5134503.article

or this one “Royal Brunswick Park in New Souhtgate N11, is awaiting final approval to construct over 2,400 new apartments and houses on a 45-acre site. This development promises to be one of London’s largest mixed-use developments, featuring a new secondary school, gymnasium, sports facilities, and multiple large public parks.”

Letmecallyouback · 14/04/2025 08:32

CrunchyKnees · 11/04/2025 12:14

I forgot to add, anyone confused as to who are the colonisers, stop and think for a moment as to how come there is a massive mosque BUILT ON TOP OF a massive Jewish temple.

🤔

Perhaps because there isn't?

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 12/04/2025 12:08

CrunchyKnees · 11/04/2025 12:14

I forgot to add, anyone confused as to who are the colonisers, stop and think for a moment as to how come there is a massive mosque BUILT ON TOP OF a massive Jewish temple.

🤔

No, it’s not built on top of Jewish temple, but on top of an old Roman pagan temple, built adjacent to where the stables were in Soloman’s time when it was both 1st Temple and Royal Palace.

The Al-Aqsa mosque is built 330ft south of the rock from which Jesus began his walk bearing the cross to gol gotha where he was crucified in 30 CE.

The Jewish Temple that was on the same hilltop was destroyed forty years later in 70CE. It was located north of the rock near the wailing wall. The Jewish Temple could not have been built over the same rock where Dome of the Rock now exists if we are going to treat scripture equally.

Six hundred years later, in the time of the Prophet Mohammad, the Jewish Temple no longer existed. The mont still had the large rock on it from Jesus time, from which Mohammad is said to have ascended from to heaven. (this rock is also by legend supposed to be where the ark of the covenant was placed)

A Muslim shrine is built over that rock- Dome of the Rock. The mosque is 330ft south of the rock, whereas the long lost Jewish Temple was to the north of the rock and spanned the high area from east to west.

The Jewish Temple was on Temple Mont, but it is not under the Al-Aqsa mosque or the Dome of the Rock and by the time the mosque was built, there hadn’t been a Temple there for over 600yrs.

In addition, the Arabian conquest of the region wasn’t one of mass migration and colonisation but of imperialist conquest over an indigenous population that included pressure to convert to the imperial state religion but no diaspora or ethnic cleansing. This is corroborated by historical documents, archaeology and DNA tests. In fact, many of the early Christians and Muslims in the region spoke Aramaic, indicating they had converted from Judaism to one of the newer religions.

ScrollingLeaves · 12/04/2025 00:48

ScrollingLeaves · 12/04/2025 00:37

Hagia Sophia is very holy.

I forgot to say hat what has happened to it is contentious too.

from the BBC in July 2029

Hagia Sophia was built as a Christian cathedral nearly 1,500 years ago and turned into a mosque after the Ottoman conquest of 1453.

The Unesco World Heritage Site became a museum in 1934 under Turkish Republic founding father Ataturk.

But earlier this week a Turkish court annulled the site's museum status, saying its use as anything other than a mosque was "not possible legally"

Pope Francis confined himself to a few words on the issue: "My thoughts go to Istanbul. I think of Santa Sophia and I am very pained."

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the first Muslim prayers would be held in Hagia Sophia on July 24.

and,

The Pope is one of several religious and political leaders worldwide who have criticised the move.

The World Council of Churches has called on President Erdogan to reverse the decision. The Church in Russia, home to the world's largest Orthodox Christian community, immediately expressed regret that the Turkish court had not taken its concerns into account when ruling on Hagia Sophia.

It has also drawn condemnation from Greece, and Unesco said its World Heritage Committee would now review the monument's status.

and,

The World Council of Churches has called on Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to reverse his decision to turn the celebrated Hagia Sophia museum back into a mosque.

ScrollingLeaves · 12/04/2025 00:37

quantumbutterfly · 11/04/2025 23:57

TBF
Istanbul is not the holiest site of their faith for Greeks.
The Greeks have Greece.
There has been some contention over Cyprus between Greece & Turkey.
Otherwise it's not a straw man argument at all.😶

Hagia Sophia is very holy.

Mercurial123 · 12/04/2025 00:20

I would say the statement I commented on was clutching at straws.

quantumbutterfly · 11/04/2025 23:57

Sameoldsameoldsame · 11/04/2025 23:09

Yep pretty much. Some countries move forward and some look back. No progress will be made though. Pointless engaging.

We are in 2025 now. Not 1940's. Most people around in 1940's are deceased or very old. Still hate rumbles on and so what if the young bear the cost of that ongoing hate and resentment. As I said before some people look forward and some look back. I know whom I'd rather live amongst.

TBF
Istanbul is not the holiest site of their faith for Greeks.
The Greeks have Greece.
There has been some contention over Cyprus between Greece & Turkey.
Otherwise it's not a straw man argument at all.😶

Sameoldsameoldsame · 11/04/2025 23:09

Mercurial123 · 11/04/2025 16:26

So by your logic the Greeks should take back Istanbul/Constantinople?

Yep pretty much. Some countries move forward and some look back. No progress will be made though. Pointless engaging.

We are in 2025 now. Not 1940's. Most people around in 1940's are deceased or very old. Still hate rumbles on and so what if the young bear the cost of that ongoing hate and resentment. As I said before some people look forward and some look back. I know whom I'd rather live amongst.

Sameoldsameoldsame · 11/04/2025 23:04

CrunchyKnees · 11/04/2025 12:14

I forgot to add, anyone confused as to who are the colonisers, stop and think for a moment as to how come there is a massive mosque BUILT ON TOP OF a massive Jewish temple.

🤔

There you go.

Mercurial123 · 11/04/2025 16:26

CrunchyKnees · 11/04/2025 12:14

I forgot to add, anyone confused as to who are the colonisers, stop and think for a moment as to how come there is a massive mosque BUILT ON TOP OF a massive Jewish temple.

🤔

So by your logic the Greeks should take back Istanbul/Constantinople?

ScrollingLeaves · 11/04/2025 15:57

Odras · 11/04/2025 13:28

I thought the Romans destroyed the temple?

They did in 70 CE.

Odras · 11/04/2025 13:28

quantumbutterfly · 11/04/2025 13:03

indeed.

I thought the Romans destroyed the temple?

Odras · 11/04/2025 13:15

Why didn’t the Arabs want their own state in the region before 1967? They had 20 years to create one under Egyptian/Jordanian rule which would surely have been sympathetic seeing as a big majority of Gazans/West Bankers were Egyptian/Jordanian?

The people living in Gaza were Palestinian not Egyptian. They were not from Egypt and were not given citizenship by Egypt and Egypt didn’t attempt to integrate it. And Egypt did not want for them to be an independent state either so no they were not sympathetic to this.

quantumbutterfly · 11/04/2025 13:03

CrunchyKnees · 11/04/2025 12:14

I forgot to add, anyone confused as to who are the colonisers, stop and think for a moment as to how come there is a massive mosque BUILT ON TOP OF a massive Jewish temple.

🤔

indeed.

Mylegishangingoff · 11/04/2025 12:24

quantumbutterfly · 11/04/2025 10:26

I wrote one sentence, you wrote a little essay. Who's spending hours?

You read it though and have unsurprisingly have nothing of note to say. Like I said if people were truly driven by being pro Israel(and by that I mean wanting what is best for the safety of Israelis) and not anti Palestinian they would have a lot more to say on the issue.

CrunchyKnees · 11/04/2025 12:14

I forgot to add, anyone confused as to who are the colonisers, stop and think for a moment as to how come there is a massive mosque BUILT ON TOP OF a massive Jewish temple.

🤔

CrunchyKnees · 11/04/2025 11:23

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ScrollingLeaves · 11/04/2025 10:45

JunkShopper · 11/04/2025 09:36

I certainly think that's a point worthy of consideration. One problem is that we can always say "YOU STARTED IT!" based on which point in the conflict we choose to go from. So I've pointed out that the Oct 7th attack was a reaction to the 1967 occupation, so it's Israel's fault. You've in turn pointed out that Israel's seizure of the "buffer zone" areas in 1967 was made necessary by Palestinian hostility before that, so it's actually the Palestinians' fault.

We could play this game all day. But unlike a lot of such political games, in this one there is actually an ultimate, right answer. Palestine was a functioning region of the Ottoman Empire for centuries, with (like other regions and countries) a majority religion defined by its majority population and space for religious and ethnic minorities as well. The first thing to change that and turn it into a battleground between two separate ethnicities that had to have their own state excluding the other, was the Zionist project from the late 19th century and then the actions by Britain to encourage that project as a separatist aspiration, to tolerate the driving of native Palestinians off their lands etc.

This gave rise to the 1948 war. That gave rise (as you rightly point out) to anti-Israeli resentment and violence by Palestinians. That gave rise to the 1967 occupation. That gave rise to the intifada and Hamas. That gave rise to Oct 7th...

Now I'm NOT saying that this means the answer is to obliterate Israel and try to recreate the Palestine of the 19th century. I'm saying we can gain a better understanding of the Palestinians' attitudes and actions within the conflict by admitting, honestly and realisitically, the original genesis of the WHOLE conflict which was visited upon them, which was not of their doing.

Especially seeing as the Palestinian ‘cause’ is to annihilate Israel and wipe out the Jews?

That's not the "Palestinian" cause. Plenty of Palestinians just want to be left in peace to get on with their lives. That's the cause of the particular subset of Palestinians who have reacted to the situation in the most violently extreme manner. Any situation where one country illegally occupies and oppresses another people is going to provoke a range of reactions like that among those people.

But it's quite handy for the untra-Zionist element within Israel, who see themselves as having the ultimate right to rule ALL of Palestine and would happily just wipe out any remaining vestige of Arab/muslim Palestine that stands in their way. Because they've always got an excuse to justify their violent oppression of the occupied territories, all of which is only necessary because they initiated the settler colonial project in the first place.

Thank you for expressing explaining this so well.

quantumbutterfly · 11/04/2025 10:26

Mylegishangingoff · 11/04/2025 09:36

I know that if posters were actually Pro Israel they would be loudly advocating for an end to the settlements to keep everyone safer. I know that if Israel were actually trying to keep their citizens safe they wouldn't be ploughing more and more money into helping them steal homes and settle in land that isn't theirs. Instead the lure of free land and stolen resources wins out.

Before 7/10 50-75% of IDF members on active duty were in the OPT protecting the people Israel pay to steal and live on free land. Only a third were dealing with Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah etc. So Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah etc the ones who are a threat to Israels very existence apparently, got less resources than throwing Palestinians out of their homes and policing people collecting rainwater. Seems a bit wrong to me and something that all of the people who care so deeply about Israels existence that they dedicate hours of their lives here typing in their defence might have wanted to pipe up about.

Edited

I wrote one sentence, you wrote a little essay. Who's spending hours?