Hamas and Gazans revolting

Hamas started this. All blood is on its hands. War is awful. Hamas reaps what it sows. It should now give in and hand back hostages and bodies. Also Hamas is illegal in the UK , a banned terrorist organisation so I hope the UK authorities are working hard to root out Hamas supporters living in our midst.

@1dayatatime how many conflict zones have you had personal experience of? If your starting assessment of me is that I'm talking "revisionist nonsense" with "no comprehension or experience of the reality of war", presumably you think you have more experience than I've had, so I'd be interested in what your experience has been.

There were options between "do nothing" and what we're seeing now. Many of those options would or could have achieved regime change and brought the leadership of Hamas, PIJ, etc to justice, with less harm to Palestinians and Israelis.

People may read or not read, or contribute or not contribute to threads for many reasons. If your conclusion is that it may give light to some people's 'true sentiments' about Hamas, what should I conclude about there currently being a total of 5 posts on a thread about traumatised child amputees? If you want a specific person's opinion on something, you can @ them and ask them directly, surely. People may have looked at the thread title, initial posts and decided to discuss things elsewhere when they saw the tone. Or people may have other things going on just now.

@Scirocco

If Hamas remain in power in Gaza then they will launch further attacks on Israel in the future. Israel cannot accept this.

For any lasting peace there needs to be the removal of Hamas as the governing group in Gaza.

Given that Hamas has shown that it is determined to remain in power that leaves two options for their removal: a) by the Gazan population but as we have seen this results in the deaths of the civilian population by Hamas or b) by Israeli military action but as we have seen this results in the deaths of the civilian population.

If the objective is to remove Hamas with the least amount of civilian deaths then protests and action by ordinary Gaza civilians would be the best option.

Which brings us back to the original thread topic of supporting the protests and condemning Hamas, something that there has been a glaring absence of from some of the regular posters on this topic that give light to perhaps their true sentiments regarding Hamas.

@Scirocco

Countries have never followed concepts such as proportionality or necessity in conflict- they have only sought to defeat the enemy.

The US suffered 2,400 deaths at Pearl Harbour but the ensuing retaliatory war with Japan resulted in the death of 2.6 million Japanese.

After it declared war on Germany, Britain suffered 460k deaths in WW2 compared to 7 million Germans.

In the more recent Falklands War, Argentina deaths were 650 compared to 255 British.

To talk of proportionality and necessity is these conflicts is revisionist nonsense that views history through modern liberal sentiments that has no comprehension or experience of the reality of war.

Israel to expand military operation and seize 'large areas' of Gaza

Israeli Defence Minister Israel Katz says the military will expand its operation in Gaza and seize "large areas" of the territory.

In a statement on Wednesday, Katz said the expanded operation aimed to "destroy and clear the area of terrorists and terrorist infrastructure". Seized areas would be "incorporated into Israeli security zones", he said.

He said this would require a large-scale evacuation of Palestinians and urged the population to eliminate Hamas and return Israeli hostages. This, he said, was the only way to end the war.

The Israeli military is reported to have begun ground operations in Rafah overnight. The announcement follows his warning last week that the military would soon operate with "full force" in additional parts of Gaza.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy8qnxwv08do

@CrunchyKnees I have no idea where you're getting the idea that conducting military action within international law and looking for longer-term sustainable peace and stability is the equivalent of "ced[ing] to Hamas".

I'm also not sure how you think Palestinians have "plenty of options". Presumably you're aware of their extremely limited (non-existent, really) exit options, that several "Arab Muslim states" have been clear that they will not accept people forcibly displaced from Palestine, and that options exist other than annexation and for ed displacement.

Why do you think annexation, forced displacement, a single state solution and the commission of military actions outside the framework of international law are the only or your preferred solution here?

Seriously @Scirocco? it seems like your opinion on an end to this war is that Israel should have ceded to Hamas, released all the the convicted terrorists they wanted back to plan more atrocities and let Hamas continue as they were? They are obviously not going to remove themselves from
power, nor have any real pressure to, its not as if they care about civilian deaths or try to avoid it, and will kill anyone deemed as collaborating with Israel.

What other country in the world would accept being blackmailed by a designated terrorist entity after an attack like Oct 7th?

Let’s not confusticate ‘children’ with young people up to the age of 19 throwing rocks (which can actually kill or cause serious incidents). I’d expect young people in the UK or any other Western country to be arrested for throwing rocks at people/vehicles as well btw. It is well known that Hamas and the other assorted terrorist groups in Gaza uses children for their activities.

Do you really believe the IDF just randomly picks up kids and uses their seemingly infinite resources to detain them for absolutely nothing? Surely there’d be a lot more detainees if that was the case?

As for Netanyahu lying about the reward for the hostages, I’m sure there would be a global SM frenzy if it got out that someone had tried to help and Netanyahu reneged on the offer. Plenty of Gazans posting on SM everyday so it’s not as if it would go unnoticed. Great Hamas PR to show the evil blood dripping fanged Netanyahu as a liar who intentionally misled Palestinians causing their deaths as well. Surprised they haven’t done it already tbh.

As for where do the Palestinians go, the same as refugees in any war, to whichever safe haven country can take them. Gaza is surrounded by Arab Muslim states so plenty of options.

A few points...

Countries have traditionally been expected to follow principles of proportionality and necessity in military responses. They don't always, but they can and should be criticised when they carry out acts which fall well outside that framework. There are multiple reports of acts carried out and alleged to have been carried out by Israeli forces, and instructed by the current Israeli government, which fall outside that framework. There have also been multiple statements made by representatives of the Israeli government, which call for things including the removal of all Palestinians from Palestinian land, the acceptability of sexual violence as a weapon to be used against Palestinians, the total destruction of Palestine and annexation of Palestinian land with forcible displacement of anyone alive there. These are things which are usually criticised when they take place. It's entirely possible to conduct military action without such things. There is a broad swathe of middle ground between doing nothing and committing war crimes.

The detained Palestinians released in the negotiated hostage release were not "thousands more convicted murderers and terrorists". Many had never been charged with a crime, let alone convicted. Some were serving sentences for relatively minor offences, some were minors (also known as children). There was a deal made which would have brought all the Israeli hostages home. It wasn't perfect. There were names on the lists of released prisoners which were deeply concerning to anyone sane who knew them. The deal was made, though. Both Israel and Hamas chose to strain it to (and past) its limits rather than commit to it, and then the Israeli government decided to return to open conflict. Neither side was able to prioritise the innocent people in Palestine and Israel, who deserve better than this.

The 'popularity' of Hamas has not been a genuine one in an environment in which people have had a free choice. As is still evident, opposing Hamas in Gaza is dangerous. People quickly learned not to be too loud in their criticisms of a government with a track record of dramatically shortening the life expectancies of its detractors, and found themselves relying on Hamas for survival because of the blockade - if something can only come in through the black market, then people become indebted to the black market and the people in charge of it. We all like to think we wouldn't use a black market, but if it's the only way to get essentials for loved ones, a lot of people will choose to prioritise their loved ones. It has been a glimmer of hope to see people feeling able to protest against Hamas, but they are risking themselves and their loved ones to do so.

There are probably multiple factors relevant to the question of why hasn't anyone been shown to have taken up Netanyahu's offer. He doesn't have a record of honesty and consistency when it comes to honouring agreements, for one thing. If someone gives information to the Israeli forces, but then is not given safe passage out and assistance to safety, then they're signing their own death warrant - they'd get found out and they and their loved ones would be hunted down and probably tortured and killed. Would you risk your own child's life in that scenario? Many people wouldn't. Another thing to consider would be how ordinary people can actually a) get the information being called for and b) get the information to Israeli forces without being killed for approaching Israeli forces. Yet another thing to consider would be that, if someone did take up the offer, get information, pass it on, have the Israeli government follow through on giving them a payment and safe passage out, public announcements of such things happening wouldn't exactly be helpful to either the Israeli forces or the Palestinians hoping to escape without being deemed traitors and hunted.

There is a difference between voluntary departures and forced displacement. Trump's proposal is not talking about people being able to leave Gaza of their own choice and seek safety elsewhere on either a temporary or permanent basis. It's talking about forcing everyone there to leave and not be able to come back. Forcible displacement like that is considered illegal under international law.

Where should forcibly displaced Palestinians go? Currently, they have no way out as all the potential routes are closed, and no destination available to them.

None of this stabilises the region in any sustainable way. The Israeli government is relying upon an aggressive and expansionist approach to fulfil objectives which are more about the leadership's ideologies and political power, rather than to do the harder work of finding a longer term resolution that doesn't rely on victory through superior firepower and violence. This doesn't honour the memories of the victims of October 7th, or bring hostages home, or keep ordinary people safe in the longer term. This just brings more harm in the longer term.

"Surely the better option is to give all those who want to live in peace the opportunity to do that outside of Gaza as there cannot be peace with Hamas having any power in Gaza?"

Where outside of Gaza will they live @CrunchyKnees ?

Of course the ALL the people who took part in the planning and execution of Oct 7th should face consequences but how is that practically feasible when they hide among civilians, in tunnels, use civilians as human shields and their main players are protected by other countries? A large proportion were reportedly civilians, potentially civilians Israel has been accused of indiscriminately bombing hiding amongst other civilians?

Shame they haven’t given themselves up before now, 18 months into the war which has devastated their people, or the people who are now revolting haven’t taken up the Netanyahu’s offer of safe passage out of Gaza and the $5 million reward for each hostage?

Isn’t it odd that no one is taking him up on that now that Gazans are turning against Hamas?

None of the remaining 59 have been returned since the bodies of the 8 dead hostages, including Sheri Bibas and her babies, and 84 year old Oded Liftshitz in that grotesque, sick pantomime, were released.

This is not a war within normal rules of engagement. Most wars don’t have hundreds civilians (or their bodies) held as hostages!

Do you think that Israel should have continued to release thousands more Palestinian convicted murderers and terrorists in return for hostages? Did Hamas ever put them surrendering in the table in negotiations?

I can’t imagine having to be a position of having to choose between getting hostages back, who you don’t know are even alive, and releasing 100x the amount of terrorists who’s aim is to kill and attack even more Israelis for years to come. Oh and also allowing the organisations who indoctrinate them to stay in power.

I’m sure Israel remembers very well what they did with Sinwar, the architect of Oct 7th, in releasing him with over 1000 other convicted prisoners in return for Gilad Shalit, the IDF soldier who was held hostage in Gaza for 5 years.

I suppose as a government, you have to take the least worse option for your people long term and hope in the end to get as many hostages back as possible.

Horrific that until Trump came into power, only Israel had international pressure to end the war by negotiating with these monsters to give them what they wanted as a reward for Oct 7th, not the countries protecting the Hamas leaders who orchestrated the whole thing while they and their own families were safe and protected.

How exactly were Israel supposed to make peace with Hamas after Oct 7th which they publicly stated they would do again and again?

We keep being told that Israel retaliating to the Oct 7th act of war is just creating a bigger following for Hamas so they wouldn’t be going anywhere soon.

Surely the better option is to give all those who want to live in peace the opportunity to do that outside of Gaza as there cannot be peace with Hamas having any power in Gaza?

There is footage on social media, not verified afaik, of the family of Abd al-Rahman Abu Samra shooting a man they allege is the Hamas operative who murdered him earlier today. I've not seen it in any traditional media other than Israeli, though I don't read Arabic so maybe it's been covered there. More details in this article. It includes the embedded video but doesn't play automatically.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/gazan-clan-executes-alleged-hamas-operative-who-killed-one-of-their-relatives/

If, this is accurate, it's a pretty big deal.

I'm not intimating anything of the sort. The relevant people - the people in government calling the shots as far as responses and planning go - have not centred justice, peace or the safe return of captured Israeli citizens in their responses. How could they be, if there is consideration of letting the leadership of Hamas go with no further consequences? The people responsible for October 7th - some of whom are still in senior leadership positions within Hamas - should face proceedings to bring them to justice.

Oh come on, enough of these tired old tropes.

If Israel wanted all the land because Jews are greedy, evil, want to wipe out Palestinians, want to run the world/do run the world (insert blood libel of choice), they could have had it decades ago. They had good reason to annex Gaza and the West Bank in 1967. Why didn’t they? Even if it was deemed illegal in the world’s eyes, why would Israel care? They have been breaking international law since 1948 haven’t they?

Are you intimating that the Jews used their special mind lasers to force the Palestinians to carry out the horrific atrocities of Oct 7th, to kidnap hundreds of civilians, so they could start a war and take the land?

How do you think any other country would have reacted to Oct 7th? Do you think they wouldn’t have gone to war?

Don't wars cause displacement? Why would this/should this war be different?

If the Palestinians had declared themselves a legal state, they would have the right of return wouldn’t they? Why didn’t they?

<Disclaimer - I mean no offence to Jewish people. Just trying to convey how ridiculous some of the arguments on here are>

Because at the centre of this for the relevant people isn't justice or safety - it's about power and expansion to create a long-desired single state in which Palestine and Palestinians do not exist. Trump's plan has not been for voluntary migration. It's for forced displacement of people from their homeland, with no right to ever return there.

Netanyahu has stated that Hamas leaders will be allowed to leave Gaza and the plan will be voluntary migration as per Trump.

Let’s hope this starts to happen sooner rather than later so this dreadful war can end and Palestinian children can live out the rest of their childhoods in peace free from Hamas’s barbarous regime and the never ending cycle of conflict.

I noted some videos of Gazans wanting US intervention.

I can’t quite believe Israel will let Hamas leaders walk with no further consequences though?

https://x.com/IsraeliPM/status/1906325482120860029

She literally said some of them would be. Did you not notice the use of 'some'?

Everyone else seemed to understand my post apart from you & one other person so I suggest you read it again or practice your comprehension skills.

I hope they overturn Hamas and elect liberal leaders with Western values of democracy and freedom including for women but I will probably have to eat my hat before they do that....

Your post literally said the pro Hamas marchers will be confused because they’ll be more pro Hamas than Gaza. So what did you mean then?

Pro Palestinian marchers have been known to wave placards supporting Hamas @kirinm as well as swastikas - there were arrests made at a central London march earlier this year.

I’m not by any means suggesting that is what most people attend the marches for but you can’t really deny some are pro Hamas.

It isn’t a welcome development that Palestinian civilians are protesting against Hamas in Gaza?

No it isn’t. Only if you’re going to pretend those marches are pro-Hamas.

"Hamas operatives kidnapped, tortured and executed a 22-year-old Palestinian man who participated in last week’s wave of protests against the terror group, according to his family.

Oday Nasser Al Rabay’s body was left in front of his family’s home over the weekend. On Saturday, many dozens were filmed participating in his funeral procession, shouting, “Hamas out"

Sad. Hamas don't want westerners seeing this uprising.