Hamas and Gazans revolting

More anti-Hamas demonstrations in Gaza.

https://x.com/IhabHassane/status/1926621666764857617

Thank you, @BelleHathor Before today, I had little idea of any of these various alliances during that terrible time of WW11.

That agreement between The Jewish Agency and the Nazi regime in 1933 is very unexpected but it was lucky those 50,000 German Jews did get to escape persecution and death by emigrating to Israel via that agreement with the Nazis.

It was a very complicated period, under the Haavara Agreement, some Zionists in Germany collaborated with Hitlers Nazi party from 1933 to 1939 to facilitate the migration of Jewish German's to Palestine.

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/history/article/2023/08/06/90-years-ago-a-negotiated-transfer-led-over-50-000-german-jews-to-palestine_6082440_157.html

@1dayatatime Thank you that is interesting, and evidently the allegiances during this time were complicated. But I was particularly speaking of the 12000 Palestinian Arab volunteers who joined the British during WW11 in the Palestinian Legion, alongside Jews.

Whereas the article you linked says The Free Arab Legion was formed “from Arab volunteers from the Middle East, notably Iraq, and North Africa.” The Free Arab Legion were fighting against the British presence and joined Italy/Germany against them.

@dairydebris (thank you) also mentioned, for balance, that though they had not realised Palestinian Arabs had joined the British which I had just said in my post, the Palestinian ‘leadership’ was in with Hitler, which is true. That was the Grand Mufti Al-Husseini who had fled Mandatory Palestine to Iraq just before the war then to Germany. So he was not still in Palestine. Al-Husseini was fighting against British rule and Zionism hence he thought Hitler would help.

But 12000 Palestinian Arabs joined the Palestinian Legion together with Jews on the side of the British.

This is digression from the thread but it is interesting.

@ScrollingLeaves

"Among these were thousands of Palestinian Arabs who volunteered to serve with the British military, serving alongside Jewish volunteers from Mandate Palestine. They served in France, North Africa, Greece, and elsewhere in both combat and non-combat roles in the war against Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy."

For historical balance there were also large number of Arab volunteers to serve with the German military:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeArabiann_Legion

Nor will the throngs of regular Palestinians who turned up to celebrate and gloat at every hostage/body return. So brave. And clearly so starving. 🙄

Honestly, if that’s the case, it’s hard to understand why Qatar still gets full diplomatic support from leaders like Trump and others, especially given their long-standing ties to parts of the Hamas leadership. I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to compare Hamas to the Nazis they’re not moral equivalents. The situations, ideologies, and histories are completely different. That kind of comparison just doesn’t really hold up when you look at the details.

So brave of these starving suffering people .... they know they re expendable to Hamas and collateral damage for IDF ...
Hamas are vile... their triumphant display of the Bibas baby coffins will never be forgotten

Bomber Harris was never ennobled like many other commanders of World War II, and Churchill himself later expressed deep reservations about the horrors inflicted on German civilians through firebombing and carpet bombing. This was a new kind of war, fought with increasingly destructive and indiscriminate weapons. There is little evidence that these raids broke the resolve of the German people; if anything, they often caused civilians to rally more tightly around their leaders. These were acts of terror bombing intended to crush the enemy's will but they frequently achieved the opposite.

And no, of course most bomber crews did not fully grasp this. Most were told they were attacking military or industrial targets. Official mission briefings often described the objectives as factories, rail yards, or other "military infrastructure," even when those were located in densely populated urban areas. Deception or euphemism was sometimes used to shield crews from the harsh reality that civilians would inevitably suffer or were being deliberately targeted.

@sualipa

"And re: WWII, I get the comparison but it's not really the same. Lots of people now think things like the bombing of Dresden were morally wrong. Just becasue something happened in history doesn’t make it right now. "

So if lots of people now believe that the bombing of Dresden and other German cities killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians was morally wrong and "not right now", would you support the prosecution of the few remaining WW2 bomber crews that are alive for war crimes. And that VE Day should have been a day of regret and contrition for all the innocent German civilians killed rather than a celebration of the end of the war?

Perhaps read the Hamas Charter which its current leader recently affirmed as its mission. Particularly Articles 11,13, 15 and 31. Can anyone argue that this is not about the perceived sovereignty of Islam in the region even when it’s right in front of their face?

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas

https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/509297/Hamas-leader-Palestinians-humiliated-occupiers

@SalmonDreams

"but if we havr to then i think a more apt analogy would be india and Pakistan who fight about territory along religious lines. Please note that inspite of repeated terrorist attacks on Indian soil india has never tried to annihilate the population of Pakistan and targets precision terrorist cells or military sites (and I did think that their response to the latest terrorist attacks wasn't wise)."

The reason India or Pakistan have never tried to escalate or invade each other's territory on a large scale is for no other reason than both countries having nuclear weapons, and that they wish to avoid complete mutual destruction.

@sualipa

"The Nazi regime was uniquely and horrifically evil with its crimes stand without equal before or since."

Hamas are uniquely and horrifically evil with crimes such as murdering elderly and children, holding babies hostage and killing them rape etc.

"While Hamas is indisputably a terrorist organization, both morally and legally, its origins are rooted in historical injustices and the grievances of a displaced people. The Palestinian experience includes being driven from their land by Zionist militia some of which employed terrorist methods in the effort to establish and sustain a Jewish state."

The Nazi regime was indisputably brutal and horrific both morally and legally. You could easily argue that its origins are rooted within n the historical injustices of the Versailles Peace deal and the grievances of its people. Immediately after the Versailles peace deal Germany was occupied by the French and British military. The French were involved in rape, murder and state organised theft of private property, industrial production and machinery.

The casual or careless invocation of Nazism makes me deeply uncomfortable. The Nazi regime was uniquely and horrifically evil with its crimes stand without equal before or since. They harnessed the full force of Germany’s industrial power to build death factories, whose sole purpose - beyond the use of slave labour was the systematic extermination of those they deemed "undesirable": Jews, homosexuals, the disabled, communists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the Roma people among them.

While Hamas is indisputably a terrorist organization, both morally and legally, its origins are rooted in historical injustices and the grievances of a displaced people. The Palestinian experience includes being driven from their land by Zionist militia some of which employed terrorist methods in the effort to establish and sustain a Jewish state

I didn't know this, thankyou.

I should say Palestinian leadership at that time aligned itself with Hitler.

The Palestinians ( although they weren't known as that at the time ) did indeed align with Hitler.

You say the Palestinians aligned with Hitler, but that is somewhat misleading as thousands of Palestinians volunteered and fought on the British side.

Millions of soldiers from European colonies in Africa, India, and Asia participated in the Allied cause during World War II. They often served far from home for less pay—and ultimately far less acknowledgment—than white European and American soldiers. Among these were thousands of Palestinian Arabs who volunteered to serve with the British military, serving alongside Jewish volunteers from Mandate Palestine. They served in France, North Africa, Greece, and elsewhere in both combat and non-combat roles in the war against Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.
https://daily.jstor.org/palestinians-against-fascism/

I was quoting the previous poster. That was clear I believe as was my main point.

I absolutely would align Hamas with Nazis in this example though, would you?

I agree I'd hesitate to draw similarities with the Allies and Netanyahu, Smotrich, Ben Gvir etc.

I can't believe anyone would question this
I questioned it because you said Gaza and Palestinians not Hamas, you have now corrected that. I also would not align Netanyahu and his extremist ministers with the allies their values do not align in any shape or form.

I'm saying out of aligning Hamas with either the Allies or the Axis in the example of the second world war then yes of course it's the Nazis! Ffs! They both wish to remove the Jews from what they feel is their land and feel killing them is an appropriate way to do this.

I should definitely have said Hamas not Gaza tho, I was quoting pp and wasn't careful with my wording, apologies for that.

I can't believe anyone would question this. I feel like I've gone down a rabbithole to a topsy turvy world.

No, obviously I don't equate current German people with Nazis, unless they start being clearly antisemitic and threatening to kill Jews for merely existing, in which case then yes I would.

I don't find it curious that the poster would equate Gaza with the Nazis and Israel with the Allies
Sorry what?? You are equating Gaza and Palestinians with the nazis? because some of their ancestors supported Hitler back in the 1940s, what an unbelievable leap that is. By that token do you equate the current German people with the nazis? I am sure some of their ancestors fought with them.

I don't find it curious that the poster would equate Gaza with the Nazis and Israel with the Allies. Its just showing they know a bit of history. The Palestinians ( although they weren't known as that at the time ) did indeed align with Hitler. There's pictures of their leaders having a jolly old time with Hitler. And Hamas wish to kill Jews, same as.... Hitler.... it really boggles my mind that you'd post without being aware of this.

You can't conflate all wars and say because some civilians were killed in some wars it makes it OK to bomb, starve, target and withhold basic necessities like medicines with the purpose of ethnically cleansing an entire population. I also find it curious that you are equating Israel with the allies and gaza with Germany, which shows an inherent prejudice against Palestinians. It is very difficult to draw fair analogies but if we havr to then i think a more apt analogy would be india and Pakistan who fight about territory along religious lines. Please note that inspite of repeated terrorist attacks on Indian soil india has never tried to annihilate the population of Pakistan and targets precision terrorist cells or military sites (and I did think that their response to the latest terrorist attacks wasn't wise).

Of course, even during world war 2, any unnecessary killing of civilians should be condemned (e.g Dresden) and lessons learnt to avoid it in the future.

I'm not a mindless pro Palestinian supporter and I can empathise with the people of Israel having to live with constant conflict and terrorist attacks. However, what the government of Israel is doing helps in no way to resolve this conflict or stop the terrorist attacks.

I think criticising hamas is a given and the region would be a better place for everyone if they stopped operating but right now hamas is not the problem.

Tbh I think this is a bit of a simplistic take. Yes, you can be critical of more than one side, and yes, wars sadly do kill civilian but that doesn’t mean we just shrug and say oh well, that’s how it is. Saying "nothing justifies the killing of civilians" isn’t naive, it’s basic humanity.

If we start saying innocent people dying is “inevitable” and therefore fine or justified, then where does that stop? By that logic, every bomb dropped on civilians is somehow ok, as long as there’s a ‘greater cause’? Sorry but no, that’s a really slippery slope.

And re: WWII, I get the comparison but it's not really the same. Lots of people now think things like the bombing of Dresden were morally wrong. Just becasue something happened in history doesn’t make it right now. We’re supposed to learn from history, not copy the worst bits. My dad RIP who fought in WW2 and ended up at the end of the war in Germany was totally shocked at the impact of the bombing campaign which he saw at furst hand and thought dropping atom bombs on cities in Japan was totally the wrong thing to do - that terrorism in its purest form.

The whole “they voted for Hamas” thing doesn’t sit right with me either. That was nearly 20 years ago, and most of the people being killed now weren’t even old enough to vote. Plus, they haven’t had another election since what exactly are people supposed to do when they can’t even choose new leaders?

Also not sure about this idea that bombing Gaza will make people turn against Hamas. If your home is destroyed and your kids are dead, you’re probably not thinking “thanks for the wake-up call.” It just makes people angrier and more desperate.

And I really don’t like the framing of pro-Palestinian protesters as clueless or supporting Hamas. Loads of them are just ordinary ppl who care about civilians being killed. You can oppose Hamas and also think that killing hundreds (or thousands) of children isn’t the answer

I think we can all agree that the goal is to bring this conflict to an end in order to stop the destruction and deaths.

I think the problem lots of people have is that the goal of the Israeli government is to 'conquer, cleanse and stay'.

Of course if this goal is achieved there will be no more death and destruction because there will be nothing left to destroy and no one left to kill.

@SalmonDreams

"You can be critical of more than one entity and nothing, absolutely nothing justifies the killing and suffering inflicted upon the people in Gaza."

This is a naive and unrealistic view, the sad reality is that wars kill innocent civilians. I don't like, you don't like it but it becomes inevitable in any urban conflict.

On the logic that nothing justifies the killing of innocent civilians then in WW2 the Allies would be unjustified in fighting Nazi Germany because 500k innocent civilians were killed.

After all the fight was against the Hitler and Nazi Party not innocent civilians. Well OK they did vote for hamas the Nazi Party in 2005 1933 but elections were cancelled after that and besides many of those killed during bombing were too young to vote in 1933. Etc etc....

I think we can all agree that the goal is to bring this conflict to an end in order to stop the destruction and deaths. The only way to achieve this is through the removal of Hamas from power. Fortunately ordinary Palestinian civilians are starting to see this, but it's sad that western pro Palestinian protesters cannot.