What does Zionism and/or anti-Zionism mean to you?

That's a roll call of shame. All the usual susoects. Miller is a reprehensible antisemite.

*6 million Jews (error which has been corrected by another poster).

6 million..

I’ll repost what I put on another thread as this is my position.

I think it’s time to put this whole thing in context.

Over a million Jews were horrifically murdered in the Holocaust and God knows how many more were displaced, orphaned, or lost business/family/homes.

Britain, who Hitler didn’t really want to go to war with and probably would’ve given a softer deal, decided Nazi Germany’s invasion of Poland was unacceptable and sacrificed 400,000 soldiers and citizens to war and air strikes for the good of global peace.

At that time, countless countries lost significant numbers of people, many countries lost land or were reshaped, and millions of people were displaced. The biggest victims were the Jews, who were left (as usual) stateless and maligned.

What happened in terms of the creation of Israel and the displacement of Palestinians is not ideal, but they only went through what millions of people in the world were going through thanks to the tragic events previously. It was not a unique event and given the level of global suffering, it was not up there with the hardest done by in my opinion.

It’s time for Islamic countries to step up in providing permanent, safe homes for Palestinians because it’s very clear they will never be able to live in peace alongside Israel. What’s the alternative? More suffering and killing?

I would be very up for Western countries making significant financial donations to enable this to happen if needed.

Jews are entitled to a homeland and a safe country. Their land is tiny compared to the amount Islam has gained through conquest, but nobody ever wants to talk about that.

We don't need any validation of David Miller. He is an utterly repellant individual.

Thank you. Reading those statements I agree.

Regarding your anti-zionist beliefs, do you agree with everything David Miller is quoted as stating in that article, or just the point you pulled out?

I've never heard of the man, but I was pretty horrified by that article. He thinks Zionism is "one of the five pillars of Islamophobia"?! Would you agree with that? I find that a repulsive idea. Why is he setting Jews and Muslims up in opposition to each other?

“[Prof Miller]’s opposition to Zionism is not opposition to the idea of Jewish self-determination or of a preponderantly Jewish state existing in the world, but rather, as he defines it, to the exclusive realisation of Jewish rights to self-determination within a land that is home to a very substantial non-Jewish population." I don't even understand what he is objecting to here? It's ok for Jews to have a land as long as there are not many non-Jews there? There are hardly any Jews in the whole world, of course there is always going to be a substantial number of Jews living in a Jewish land. Why is that a problem? Does he think we can't co-exist with other people? I literally can't make head or tails of this. Does he mean that the idea of Jewish self-determination he is fine with, as long as it is not actualised?

Thank you. We don't need any validation of David Miller. He is an utterly repellant individual.

Here are some people who do support David: https://supportmiller.org/jewish-supporters

That’s fine. We don’t need to agree with you, or David Miller.

David Miller is a known anti Semite.

I'm surprised at that article, poor students.

David Miller is a known anti Semite.

Here's an article in The Guardian -
"The belief that Israel’s actions amount to apartheid, ethnic cleansing and genocide are “worthy of respect in a democratic society”, an employment tribunal has concluded in a landmark decision."

I agree with David Miller

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/oct/14/anti-zionist-beliefs-worthy-respect-uk-tribunal-finds-israel

What do you mean by that please?

Anti Zionist is a protected belief:

I’m being lazy and quoting myself from a few months ago (my views are unchanged- and I’m a religious Orthodox Jew)

Zionism is the belief that there should be a homeland for the Jewish people in our ancestral land of Israel. That’s not at the exclusion of other people living there too.
For religious Jews, Zionism has a meaning separate from political Zionism - it refers to our eternal longing for our return to our homeland, the coming of the messiah and to rebuild the third temple. It’s central to our belief system, we pray towards Jerusalem three times a day, and our longing to return to Zion (another name for Jerusalem) is referred to in our daily prayers and blessings over and over again, prayers said by generations of Jews, (for about 2500 years ) - since the destruction of the second temple. Zionism is inextricably intertwined with Judaism, although they are not the same thing.

Political Zionism is a secular construct, and is not the same as religious Zionism.
To be a religious Jew is to be inextricably a Zionist in some form, regardless of opinions on the political structures/ Israeli government/ state of Israel.

As above, the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Israel (i.e. the core zionistic belief) does not mean it should be at the exclusion of other people peacefully co-existing in Israel.

I’ll add this time that many of our mitzvos (commandments) only apply in Israel, and are bound to the land.

I am a Zionist. I believe in a homeland for the Jewish nation in our ancient homeland, and we have this in the state of Israel. That's what Zionism is, a belief in a Jewish homeland in Israel. Other than sharing this belief, Zionists will have differing views on what Zionism means to them.
To me, having a Jewish state means that "Never again" is not a hope or a wish, it's an actuality. It means that there is somewhere that Jews are not 'other'.
It doesn't mean that only Jews should live there or that non Jews should be treated as less than. That is 'our land' doesn't mean it isn’t also the land of other people. It doesn't mean that I can't criticise the actions of the Israeli government.
Anti Zionism is the belief that Jews should not have a home land. For some anti Zionists it's also the belief that Jews should be expelled from Israel. For some, it is the belief that their antisemitism doesn't count if they call it anti Zionism.
A relatively small number of Jews are anti Zionists because of their religious beliefs.

Worth knowing that in the USA there's now more Christian Zionists than Jewish ones. There's a bunch of reasons but one of the ickier ones is the belief of some people (generally evangelical Protestants I believe) that Jews need to return to Israel to fulfill some prophecies about the end times.

I have run into more than a few people who think that the distinction between Zionist and anti-Zionist is about supporting Israel and its actions more actively, rather than just about the basic existence of a state. A friend of mine got called both a "Zio b*tch" and a "self hating Jew" in the same Twitter thread because she opposes the war and the government but not the state itself.

Im not Jewish but believe that the Jewish people have the same right to self determination as anyone else. Its about human rights, safety and fulfillment. Im very sorry you think that's silly and that you have to be Jewish to believe that Jewish people should be afforded the same rights as anyone else.

Its got very little to with god as entirely secular Jews have been at the same risk of persecution as observant Jews and all have the right to return to Israel.

Zionism is simply the belief that the Jewish people have the right to self determination and to deny them is antisemitic.

Thats the meaning of zionism in non jewish circles too. As you say there are diffetent strands but the basic meaning at the heart is simple and anyone further complicating it usually has an agenda.

Oh this will go well I fear...

anyway, left wing Jew popping in to say that in Jewish circles, generally, Zionism just means belief in the existence of the state of Israel. It doesn't inherently mean supporting what the state does. The conflation of the two things winds up causing a lot of harm. There's many strands of Zionism.

Every anti-Zionist I've known, and based on how I understand it this should be the definition, is opposed to the existence of the state. There's actually multiple reasons for that, not just settler colonialism. For example many Hasidic Jews have traditionally opposed a state because they believe it's against religious law for us to create a new state before the arrival of the Messiah. You'll also find people who oppose Israel because it's an ethnostate, or because they believe in Diasporism.

There are also non-Zionists who are neither for nor against.

I believe that jewish people should have a homeland because history has shown that they arent safe living amongst non jews. I understand the significance and safety that Israel holds for many jews and i don't think they should be denied that. Why shouldn't it be in the place where they are originally from? Aside from that, it's happened now so there's no going back.

The West Bank has many significant Jewish sites. To say that there is no Jewish history there is just plain wrong. They were expelled long before any Palestinians lived there. That doesn't mean I agree with people being expelled to make way for Jewish settlers. I don't at all, but to deny that they have history there and are just European colonisers as is a common claim, is ridiculous

I don't think this is the case, you just need to be someone 'who advocates for an independent Jewish state where Jews can live in safety'

Going back to your 1948 post do you think any state for Jewish people should have been created?

Maybe look up the definition of words before you lecture people on them.

BidoofBlue
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Given that you clearly thought only Jewish people can be Zionists, you clearly don't even know what the word means

Zionism means the founding of an independent Jewish state. Why would anyone who wasn’t Jewish have an interest in that?

I’m not a Buddhist, a Christian, a Sikh, a Muslim,, a Quaker, a Shinto, a Mormon, a Zoroastrian, a Pagan, a Jehovah’s Witness or any other religion you can think of. I’ve run out.

I wouldn’t want to establish a state for any of those, for the same readn

I don’t believe in god!

Why on earth would anyone who wasn’t Jewish have any interest in founding a Jewish state? Really, that’s just silly.

Given that you clearly thought only Jewish people can be Zionists, you clearly don't even know what the word means.