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Conflict in the Middle East

How did you get to your current position on the crisis in the Middle East?

244 replies

BaMamma · 12/02/2025 21:59

Following a poster's comment about her views on Israel/Palestine changing after October 7th, I wonder if other posters' views have changed or if they've been constant since first learning of this issue?

For my part I've always been left leaning and tended to accept the narrative around in the 80s and 90s about how terrible Israel was and awfully they treated the Palestinians, I recall the phrase 'the prisoners have become the prison guards' being bandied about quite a bit. I'll admit I didn't think about it too deeply, even though I had visited Israel as a kid and loved it.
I was at a friend of a friend's house when the Ramallah incident was playing out on the TV screens, he had 24-hour news on and that's all it seemed to be showing. I was appalled at the violence, but he was chuckling, supporting the barbarians tearing those men apart, raising bloodied hands to the crowds.
So, I started reading and kept on reading and thinking and came to an understanding of Israel as the only democracy in the Middle East and the only home for Jews in the world, surrounded by Muslim neighbors. I began to see the conflict in world history terms rather than just Palestine vs Israel and saw the necessity of a Jewish state.

OP posts:
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OpheliaWasntMad · 13/02/2025 19:33

WeepingPlant · 13/02/2025 17:28

As a leftie (until the corbyn years) I was broadly on the side of Palestine as the oppressed people. This started to change as I learned more about The conflict and realised it was far more nuanced than most of us can appreciate. The marches and rise in antisemitism changed my viewpoint forever. I still lean left but I can't accept the simplistic notion that Israel = bad, Palestine = good. The outpouring of public hatred towards Jewish people has been despicable and serves to strengthen the necessity of a Jewish state.

This is similar to where I am.
I am still very sympathetic to ordinary Palestinians but October 7th was so hideous that it did have a massive impact on me .
And then the weekly March in London- I couldn’t get my head around why, in the immediate aftermath of October 7th - there was condemnation of Israel but no reference to Hamas or the hostages. Nearly all my friends are very pro Palestine ( which is fine ) but it was impossible to speak to them about the hostages or to get them to speak about Hamas. It felt very uncomfortable trying to have an honest conversation.
I came on here as a safe space to find out more and to hone my views ( and my argument)

Lonelycrab · 13/02/2025 19:30

I got to my position on the Middle East crisis by knowing right from wrong.

OpheliaWasntMad · 13/02/2025 19:22

WinterCosiness · 13/02/2025 18:46

I think Mumsnet should remove the laughing emoji option, if it's being misused as much as people have said on this thread. I think I preferred it when 'thanks' was the only option, before all the emojis.
Whatever your view on the middle-east, it's an extremely serious issue, and no laughing matter. Nobody's suffering (Israeli, Palestinian or other) should ever be made light off. All life is sacred.

Agree - on all points

Lonelycrab · 13/02/2025 19:21

This reply has been deleted

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dairydebris · 13/02/2025 19:17

PotaytoPotahhto · 13/02/2025 19:12

This isn't a back and forth thread. Just introduce yourself and your view and how you got there

Your words, not mine.

Yeah. Kicking myself tbh. Still, here we are.

dairydebris · 13/02/2025 19:16

mouthpipette · 13/02/2025 19:10

No,
The first Aliyah at the end of the 19th century was when the seeds were being sown, with Jewish refugees from Eastern Europe entering, at an increasing rate, a land that had been relatively peacefully populated by Palestinian Jews (about 5% ) and the Palestinian Muslim majority of about 90%.
Up until about 1870, most Jews had absolutely no interest in creating Israel. And even at the end of the 19th century when the Jews were pouring out from Eastern Europe, most wanted to go to either the UK or America. My grandparents chose the UK.

This is so sad.
No. Jewish people have been present on the land since Biblical times. All their most sacred sites are there. The ruins of Herod's temple are underneath the Haram. The Western Wall is 1000's of years old. The Persians have sacked the city, the Romans have sacked the city, the European Christians have sacked the city, the Muslims have sacked the city. The Jews have always been there. They have never, ever forgotten it and they never will. I find the story of their resilience amazing. I think you're missing out not knowing it.

PotaytoPotahhto · 13/02/2025 19:12

dairydebris · 13/02/2025 19:00

No
It's been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years.

And what happened in those 100's and 1000's of years is pertinent to current situation.

This isn't a back and forth thread. Just introduce yourself and your view and how you got there

Your words, not mine.

mouthpipette · 13/02/2025 19:10

dairydebris · 13/02/2025 19:00

No
It's been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years.

And what happened in those 100's and 1000's of years is pertinent to current situation.

No,
The first Aliyah at the end of the 19th century was when the seeds were being sown, with Jewish refugees from Eastern Europe entering, at an increasing rate, a land that had been relatively peacefully populated by Palestinian Jews (about 5% ) and the Palestinian Muslim majority of about 90%.
Up until about 1870, most Jews had absolutely no interest in creating Israel. And even at the end of the 19th century when the Jews were pouring out from Eastern Europe, most wanted to go to either the UK or America. My grandparents chose the UK.

Germanymunch · 13/02/2025 19:10

dairydebris · 13/02/2025 19:07

I suppose this is my fault for engaging 🙄.
Why wang on about October? Again, because it's pertinent. Lots of people are dead because of it. More people may yet die because of it. If you don't care about that go read another thread. Or, even better, go read a book.

There we go then, you want everyone to agree and yet ask why people don't without listening. The rest of the world does have their own eyes and media. We can see what has happened. Lots of people are dead because the men on both sides keep engaging in war - an eye for an eye. It's archaic and actually ridiculous to think this is some high brow debate.

dairydebris · 13/02/2025 19:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I suppose this is my fault for engaging 🙄.
Why wang on about October? Again, because it's pertinent. Lots of people are dead because of it. More people may yet die because of it. If you don't care about that go read another thread. Or, even better, go read a book.

Germanymunch · 13/02/2025 19:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

dairydebris · 13/02/2025 19:00

Germanymunch · 13/02/2025 18:58

Why would it start in October though? This has been ongoing since 1948. It is clear which side has weapons and money. David and Goliath.

No
It's been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years.

And what happened in those 100's and 1000's of years is pertinent to current situation.

Germanymunch · 13/02/2025 18:58

Why would it start in October though? This has been ongoing since 1948. It is clear which side has weapons and money. David and Goliath.

BaMamma · 13/02/2025 18:51

WinterCosiness · 13/02/2025 18:46

I think Mumsnet should remove the laughing emoji option, if it's being misused as much as people have said on this thread. I think I preferred it when 'thanks' was the only option, before all the emojis.
Whatever your view on the middle-east, it's an extremely serious issue, and no laughing matter. Nobody's suffering (Israeli, Palestinian or other) should ever be made light off. All life is sacred.

I do rather agree. I like being able to send a laughing emoji when someone is actually funny, but it's too easy to abuse.

OP posts:
WinterCosiness · 13/02/2025 18:46

I think Mumsnet should remove the laughing emoji option, if it's being misused as much as people have said on this thread. I think I preferred it when 'thanks' was the only option, before all the emojis.
Whatever your view on the middle-east, it's an extremely serious issue, and no laughing matter. Nobody's suffering (Israeli, Palestinian or other) should ever be made light off. All life is sacred.

LetThereBeLove · 13/02/2025 17:47

WeepingPlant · 13/02/2025 17:28

As a leftie (until the corbyn years) I was broadly on the side of Palestine as the oppressed people. This started to change as I learned more about The conflict and realised it was far more nuanced than most of us can appreciate. The marches and rise in antisemitism changed my viewpoint forever. I still lean left but I can't accept the simplistic notion that Israel = bad, Palestine = good. The outpouring of public hatred towards Jewish people has been despicable and serves to strengthen the necessity of a Jewish state.

Thank you WeepingPlant

wordsworthundercover · 13/02/2025 17:30

SharonEllis · 13/02/2025 17:17

Yes I get the nasty emojis too. Why people think pointing out antisemitism, prejudice and misinformation is funny I'll never know but whatever turns you on.

Edited

I'm sorry to hear that @SharonEllis I usually ignore it, but I don't think there's any rule about picking people up on it, if you wanted to.

WeepingPlant · 13/02/2025 17:28

As a leftie (until the corbyn years) I was broadly on the side of Palestine as the oppressed people. This started to change as I learned more about The conflict and realised it was far more nuanced than most of us can appreciate. The marches and rise in antisemitism changed my viewpoint forever. I still lean left but I can't accept the simplistic notion that Israel = bad, Palestine = good. The outpouring of public hatred towards Jewish people has been despicable and serves to strengthen the necessity of a Jewish state.

SharonEllis · 13/02/2025 17:17

Yes I get the nasty emojis too. Why people think pointing out antisemitism, prejudice and misinformation is funny I'll never know but whatever turns you on.

Scirocco · 13/02/2025 17:17

Lalaloveya · 13/02/2025 17:08

Same here. I even have one fan who claims not to want to engage with me but takes the time to give every post I make a laughing emoji.

I get it too. Not every post though - that's a new level of dedication there.

wordsworthundercover · 13/02/2025 17:13

@Lalaloveya That's one dedicated fan!

Lalaloveya · 13/02/2025 17:08

wordsworthundercover · 13/02/2025 17:03

It's just sneaky unpleasantness, because only you can see other's reactions. I've had some, usually in response to people dying. I expect I will get one now, in fact.

Same here. I even have one fan who claims not to want to engage with me but takes the time to give every post I make a laughing emoji.

wordsworthundercover · 13/02/2025 17:03

PotaytoPotahhto · 13/02/2025 16:33

It’s quite sad that I’ve had posters laugh in response to this. As though innocent people dying is something to laugh about.

It’s very telling as to how some posters think when it comes to this issue. What miserable people they must be.

It's just sneaky unpleasantness, because only you can see other's reactions. I've had some, usually in response to people dying. I expect I will get one now, in fact.

PotaytoPotahhto · 13/02/2025 17:02

SharonEllis · 13/02/2025 16:54

Anyone can criticise Israel's actions. What is not acceptable is to be racist and to tap into centuries of Jew hatred which has lead to the demonising of Jewish people through tropes and stereotypes. In answer to the op's question, seeing these tropes reemerge in regular conversations about the ME made me realise how antisemitism lies at the heart of attitudes and is the reason why people don't want to listen and engage openly. There is lots to read if you really don't understand. Start with the IHRA definition and google the Livingstone formulation as its particularly relevant to the question of criticising Israel.

After another poster explained, I can see why what I said about colonisers and the media can be taken to be offensive, and I have therefore not objected any further to my post being deleted.

SharonEllis · 13/02/2025 16:54

PotaytoPotahhto · 13/02/2025 13:25

It is really disappointing that my post was deleted. Perhaps the poster who claimed it was anti semitic can explain why but I’m not sure how anyone can respond to OP and explain why they support Palestinians without criticising Israel’s actions.

Anyone can criticise Israel's actions. What is not acceptable is to be racist and to tap into centuries of Jew hatred which has lead to the demonising of Jewish people through tropes and stereotypes. In answer to the op's question, seeing these tropes reemerge in regular conversations about the ME made me realise how antisemitism lies at the heart of attitudes and is the reason why people don't want to listen and engage openly. There is lots to read if you really don't understand. Start with the IHRA definition and google the Livingstone formulation as its particularly relevant to the question of criticising Israel.

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