How did you get to your current position on the crisis in the Middle East?

All these facts so often ignored.

You got it and you thought it was ok?

Are you saying all the Palestinians are terrorists then?

I start with the viewpoint of someone who values democracy and abhors militant Islamism.
Accepting Israel needs to fight relentlessly to exist. Knowing that the Jews are the most persecuted group in history. Knowing that the Islamists want them gone from the area. Those are just inescapable facts.

My viewpoint on Gaza comes from those positions. That the Israelis have to fight or die.

This is completely wrong to the point of deliberate misrepresentation with the purpose of denying the right of the Jewish people to self determination.

You characterise centuries of persecution in their own homeland as 'naffing off'. Why do you completely misrepresent whst happened,? Of course the numbers were relatively small. The Ottoman empire even restricted the numbers allowed to be there. And why, through the whole period do you think Jewish people kept coming back? Why do you think before the 19th century it was often Sephardim not Ashkenazim going back though some Ashkenazi communities also moved before the 19th century. Zionism predates the 1870s because Israel is central to Judaism, in its prayers and practices, the orientation of the synagogue and unbroken, though fractured presence.

Don't worry, I got it too. 😀

Phew, I'm glad someone got it. Thanks.

It’s very clear what @mouthpipette is trying to say so the faux naivety is pointless.

She’s trying to point out that before the 20th century, Palestine was not a Jewish homeland and it only became one in the early 20th century when large numbers of Jews started to move there. She’s trying to quell the points made that there has always been a large Jewish population in what is now Israel and that the lands have always been in dispute.

@BaMamma
3 Jews in Jerusalem, 1895. Which of them looks like they might have come from Eastern Europe and which two look like their families could have lived there for centuries?
It's a great pic.

I haven’t RTFT.

My current position is one of great sadness and anger at the whole situation. Conflict and blood shed. Children being killed and witnessing horrors. Families torn apart. Humans suffering. Hatred and prejudice. I am angry and appalled that this is going to go on and on because there really doesn’t seem to be a way the whole region can live in peace, find safety and security in their homes and experience life free from fear.

I just saw there is a thread on site stuff about the laugh emoji being used to mock or bully people. You can report the post with a note about the emoji, apparently, and it will be treated as a personal attack. They won't delete your post, but I suppose if someone keeps doing it they may be prevented from posting. Hope that's helpful. It's obviously a problem across the site, and not just here.

Sorry, I should have said, "The number of Jews was relatively few ... until. ..."

And the "until" is the start of the influx of the first Aliyah. After that demographics changed radically. Read up about the Arab riots in the mid 1930s.

They were there because it was their home, and probably had been for scores of generations. But these Palestinian Jews were relatively few.... until....

I do realise Judaism predates Islam. I mean, how thick do you think I am ?
(on a scale of 1 to 10)

I'm simply saying that by the 1800s most of the Jews has girded their loins and naffed off out of the holy land to other middle eastern countries and parts of Europe.
In the holy land, by 1870, they comprised just 1 in every 25 people.
Were they just there to hold the fort ?

Well people are sick in the head if they don’t care about babies. I’m sure most people on this thread don’t actually want to kill babies. Even the loudest voices I’d hope,

it’s ok to challenge each others beliefs. We are not at the table for the negotiations.

I am a history graduate and have taken further courses on the Middle East as it is a special interest of mine.

I also watch emotive documentaries shock horror.

An emotive documentary is about editing, not the veracity of its content.

I haven't looked at the data, but,

"Montefiore commissioned several censuses of the Yishuv, or Jewish community in Palestine: these were conducted in 1839, 1849, 1855, 1866 and 1875, and provided much data about the people. The censuses attempted to list every Jew individually, together with some biographical and social information (such as their family structure, place of origin, and degree of poverty)"

I surmise it was done thoroughly, probably right down to shul seat numbers.

Thank you for the ref, I was aware of him, but brushed up after the link. Yes, he did a lot for the Jews in Palestine in the mid 1800's. He was a philanthropist and helped the Jewish population there. But they were still the minority and very much so. When they started coming in in great numbers, that's when the problems started.

From WIKI
According to the 1871-72 census, the total population of Palestine, excluding the Bedouin, was 381,954 residents. Of them, about 85 percent were Muslims (Druze were included in that category by the Ottomans), 11 percent were Christians and 4 percent Jews.