How did you get to your current position on the crisis in the Middle East?

I do think the Palestinian Bedouin get rather forgotten in this situation. considering they are increasingly regarded as an indigenous group, with a long history in the area. They are also having homes demolished and villages destroyed. As far as i know they largely made an effort to get along in Israel and many served in the IDF, yet they are still being attacked in the West Bank.

I arrived at my current position on Israel and Palestine when I was grown up enough to read long newspaper articles on the subject, probably late twenties. 30+ years later my feelings/views haven't altered. Probably become more entrenched to be honest in the light of the past 18 months.

I think the government don't want to give up the West Bank, or East Jerusalem. I don't know where they think the Bedouin and Palestinian people there will go. They are not leaving any space for a two state solution. I always thought there was hope for that, and it seemed the best option, but I don't if any land will be left for it.

Israel is there to stay precisely because of it's military strength. Had it not armed itself to the teeth and defended itself aggressively it wouldn't actually be here. I think it's worth remembering that.

Exactly. Israel is armed to the teeth and has the backing of one of the worlds strongest superpowers. There is no realistic threat to its continued existence. Israel is there to stay.
The question is, within which borders ?
The most popular Palestinian leader (MB) suggests the 1967 borders.
However the present Israeli government will not accept this.

Potato Not when the enemy use rockets on a permanent basis against your country which is what Hamas has been doing for years. October 7th meant that Israel could no longer let this state of affairs continue.

Agree..
All my life I've been aware of terror attacks in and against Israel and Israelis and Jews abroad, 7/10 was a culmination of that horror. I've seen the rise of aggressive antisemitism in the UK and it horrifies me that it has become so mainstream. When I read clueless posters saying that the PLO were not a terrorist organisation I realise how little they're aware of the history of the region and the conflict.
I wonder if the same people call for the dissolution of other nation states formed as recently as, or even later than Israel, and if not, why not.

You do know that Saudi Arabia currently has no diplomatic relations with Israel, and doesn't recognise it as a country, right?

They're tried 'damaging Israel' without guns and war. It didn’t work, so their self interest means they are looking at starting diplomatic relations.

Qatar fund Hamas - a terrorist organisation dedicated to destroying Israel - to the tune of $0.5 Billion a year. Iran give a further $1 Billion to Hezbollah and Hamas each year, purely in order to destroy Israel.

The UN table a ridiculously disproportionate number of resolutions against Israel, compared to countries committing worse atrocities.

In 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine, attacked the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant and committed the seige of Mariupol. Remember that?

The Gaza war hadn't started.

In that same year - 2022 - there were 15 UN resolutions against Israel. 13 UN Resolutions against the rest of the world.

• 6 against Russia, which had invaded a country and besieged a city, deliberately starving civilians for 3 months.
• just 1 against Syria, where the Assad regime had murdered 1000 civilians that year, including 133 tortured to death.
• Just 1 against Afghanistan, where in 2022 the Taliban banned girls from getting an education, banned women from working in offices or professionally, stopped womens driving licences, closed womens public baths and banned women from parks and gyms. It's got worse since then of course
• And 15 against Israel. Where the war in Gaza had not yet started.

Are you seriously suggesting that other countries aren't doing absolutely everything in their power to harm Israel, every single day?

There are polarised views from both sides reinforced by echo chamber social media so the days of viewing any topic from the other side's perspective are fast disappearing.

However as a general rule of thumb I find that any "side" that shouts a lot, uses buzzword insults and wears a face mask at public demonstrations doesn't get my support, are to be wary of and seemingly are unwilling to publicly own their opinions or actions.

I was always really anti-Israel, and that their claims that Hamas wished to annihilate them was propaganda to give them an excuse to behave as they did. I went to pro-Palestine demonstrations, and believed and reposted every claim that painted Israel in the worst possible light.

On 7 October 2023 I was scrolling twitter and saw footage of a girl's lifeless, broken body on the back of a pickup truck with armed, triumphant men. It was so horrific I could barely make sense of it. The young woman was Shani Louk.

More and more unimaginably horrific footage, much of which has now probably been deleted, came up on my feed. It was like a portal into hell. The revulsion especially that I felt as a woman, was intense.

And at that point I saw, really saw, what Israel had been dealing with. From then onwards I have completely supported Israel as I understand now that they're actually in a battle to ensure their ongoing existence. I feel like the scales fell from my eyes, and feel ashamed of my previous views.

I find it really interesting when people make comments like this in relation to Israel, that the large numbers of migrants caused problems. I'm sure it's true whether or not you agree that they had the right to go there.

But the exact same people who say this would be outraged if anyone said that large numbers of migrants into Europe were causing problems. They'd say it was racist. I know it's human to be inconsistent at times, but I do think there is a huge dissonance there. Particularly when you consider that the Jews entering Israel in the 1940s were usually stateless refugees whose entire families had been murdered.

Respectfully I disagree it’s so black and white. Nuclear weapons hasn’t stopped countries from severing relationships with Russia so I struggle to accept that having nuclear weapons has caused Israel’s neighbours to do absolutely nothing.

There are other ways to damage a country other than bombs and war.

Because Israel can defend itself, other regional powers pragmatically work with it.

That absolutely doesn't mean that they would continue if Israel was unprotected. History is the best predictor of future behaviour.

Would you bet your children's lives on humans suddenly starting to act differently, because of unicorns and rainbows? No, me neither.

To be fair, it wasn’t OP who said this was a state your opinion and leave thread. It was another poster that decided that’s how this thread should go!

I’ve always gently leaned towards Israel, simply on the basis of its status as the only democracy in the Middle East, attitudes to women and homosexuality etc. I’ve also always admired the family rituals in Judaism. But October 7 and more importantly the reaction to it turned me into a full on Zionist.

All the talk of “open air prisons” “apartheid state” and so on got me reading. I have spent over a year listening and reading to books on the history of the region both ancient and modern.

I am completely staggered by the misrepresentation and lies that have taken hold as well as the lack of attention given to the aggression and intransigence from the Palestinian side.

Well if it was about fear there would be other ways that don’t involve war - sanctions, ending all diplomatic relations, etc. That has happened.

Conversely, Saudi and Israel have actually been working to build a relationship, not destroy it!

Apols for the derail op. I forgot what thread this was but its hard to overlook such egregious and strategic misinformation.

Israel still exists because it puts enormous effort, skill and resources into its continuing survival.

You can't use that as an argument why they should stop doing so.

That it didn’t happen shows that Israel is established and the surrounding Muslim counties aren’t seeking to destroy it.

Well, that and the fact that Israel has nukes.

The right to defend is not what it’s doing in Gaza though. Its actions are completely disproportionate. It has gone beyond defending itself and has sought to destroy Gaza’s infrastructure and economy with no regard for human life. Hamas is a terror organisation, expecting them to have respect for human life is ambitious. Israel is a democracy that wants legitimacy in its actions - its treatment of Palestinians has been abhorrent.

Yes, two sides need to work to a solution but all Israel has managed to achieve is ensure that there is a future generation of Israel haters amongst Palestinians. The onus is on Israel to do better. The onus is on Israel to stop killing innocents in the most vile way. When you read stories of the IDF shooting toddlers in the head and running over families with their tanks, it’s really hard to see their actions as self defence or necessary. Save from Iran, which is essentially run by a group of mad religious man that no other country in the Middle East gives any legitimacy to, Israel is not surrounded by enemies seeking its destruction. If it was, then Israel’s attack on Gaza would have given them the perfect excuse to retaliate and attack Israel. That it didn’t happen shows that Israel is established and the surrounding Muslim counties aren’t seeking to destroy it.

@potaytopotahhto
We are way past any argument that questions Israel’s self determination

But we're obviously not.

On thread after thread, there are comments about 'Palestinian land'. By which posters mean Palestinian Arab land.

There's a deliberate muddying there, whether they mean a state which should be governed by an Arab government, or whether only Arabs are permitted to own land in the area, and even if it was bought by Jews it still inherently 'belongs' to Arabs. Can you imagine saying that about land owned by immigrants in the UK?

And yes, I know some if it was forcibly taken. But the overwhelming majority of the land was bought, or else was a community resource whose control went to the government. Exactly as control of community land went to Arab governments in the areas they controlled.

Hamas specifically say they want to continue to commit terrorist atrocities until they eradicate all Jews in the area. 30% of Gazan civilians support Hamas.

A majority of Palestinians think Israel shouldn't exist.

Staggeringly, even in the West a poll last year found that 54% of young people don't think Israel should exist.

And Jewish people fully understand what that means.

So yes, it needs to keep being said that Jewish people have the right to self determination in Israel.

And yes, Israel needs to keep fighting for it's survival every single day. If you don't realise that, you are incredibly naive.

But they werent historical facts and the connection of the Jews to the land was never about numbers because so many were thrown out. I certainly hope that Israel will continue but it will only be so if Israel is allowed to defend itself and its right to exist is accepted. The creation of 2 states is not only the responsibility of Israel. It is at least just as much the responsibility of those whose stated intention is to destroy Israel.

Well no, Stating historical facts isn’t denying the Jewish people the right to self determination in any shape or form. Regardless of how many Jews originally lived in Palestine before large numbers started to move there, Israel is now established and will continue to exist as a Jewish state. Saying otherwise is like claiming America should no longer exist and should return to the Native Americans. It has no merit as an argument.

We are way past any argument that questions Israel’s self determination. But the key point is that Israel is now the dominant power, and it is therefore on Israel to work towards the two state solution, not against it.

I hope this will be screened in my area too

As above, where we are told that the Jews forced out of the area were simply 'naffing off'.