Are Hamas as thick as they are evil?!

Some analysts do not believe, although repeatedly claimed, Israel made a generous offer to the Palestinians at Camp David in 2000.

“With Israel, it will be necessary to challenge some deeply held illusions about the peace process and why it broke down. Chief among these is the assertion that the Palestinians rejected a "generous" Israeli offer at Camp Dlavid two years ago. It is a view that spans the Israeli political spectrum, uniting the hard right with born-again rejectionists like Ehud Barak, confirming all in their belief that political dialogue has been exhausted and that Arafat is an inveterate terrorist. It is time for some constructive revisionism.

Barak's proposal for a Palestinian state based on 91% of the West Bank sounded substantive, but even the most cursory glance at the map revealed the bad faith inherent in it. It showed the West Bank carved into three chunks, surrounded by Israeli troops and settlers, without direct access to its own international borders.

The land-swap that was supposed to compensate the Palestinians for the loss of prime agricultural land in the West Bank merely added insult to injury. The only territory offered to Palestinian negotiators consisted of stretches of desert adjacent to the Gaza Strip that Israel currently uses for toxic waste dumping. The proposals on East Jerusalem were no better, permitting the Palestinians control of a few scattered fragments of what had been theirs before 1967.

Barak offered the trappings of Palestinian sovereignty while perpetuating the subjugation of the Palestinians. It is not difficult to see why they felt unable to accept. The only surprise is how widely the myth of the "generous offer" is now accepted.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/10/comment

To add, Arab countries did use Palestinians for their own ends, no friends really.

300,000 Palestinians were forcibly displaced by Jewish forces in 1947/48 before Arab countries attacked.

@LoremIpsumCici do you honestly believe that to be true? I am astounded you would think that.

Your post was a derail and would've been better made outside this thread. Neither the booksellers nor the Israeli police who arrested them are in Hamas.

I agree, to take one of my examples showing how you don’t have to be Hamas or a sympathiser you can still get crushed by the state as it is fundamentally racist towards Palestinians and turn it into a derail is a diversion we don’t need.

It was a criminal acting alone murder too, it wasn’t sanctioned by Hamas. The link she posted clearly stated that the killer of the Christian bookshop owner in Gaza was caught, convicted and condemned to death by Hamas.

There is a difference between crime by criminals and state violence by police/military.

”How do you know?”
See BBC news:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn4znw1ex1eo

and
https://www.thebookseller.com/news/jerusalems-educational-bookshop-owners-arrested-as-books-on-israel-palestine-conflict-confiscated

Btw, the charges have been dropped
”The booksellers were initially charged with "inciting and supporting terrorism", but their attorney Nasser Odeh said this was changed to "disturbing the public order" while they were interrogated.
According to reports, the two men will be released from detention today, 11th February, and will be placed under house arrest for a week.”

I guess seizing a copy of Haaretz newspaper in Arabic with a photo of the hostages and calling that “incitement and support of terrorism” just didn’t hold up in court.

They weren’t being heard anyway and had not been for as long as Netanyahu has been in power.

My first posts on this thread were all about how evil Hamas is- the conversation had moved on so I suggest you retract this serious accusation as it is kind of suspicious that you aren’t saying it to nonJewish posters who also happen to not condemn Hamas in each and every post.

OK well if you don't get it after I've said it twice then there's no point saying it again.

No - I said you found the story tiresome and irrelevant? I genuinely thought that’s what you were saying?

Please don't twist my words like that. It's petty and unfair.

You know what I meant. The constant reaching to find something to blame Palestinians for and the whataboutery is tiresome. Saying I find this man's murder tiresome is outrageous and hurtful.

Anyway - back to the thread title

You’re completely wrong if you think I needed to Google. It’s a story I haven’t forgotten.

It’s a shame you and other posters find the story of the murdered Christian book seller tiresome and irrelevant. There are usually many references to historical wrong doing by Israelis on here ..

It would be better for discussion about treatment of bookshop owners to have a dedicated thread, if people want to discuss it. Neither the initial derail about the Jerusalem booksellers nor the response about the Christian booksellers in Gaza appear relevant to the question of whether Hamas now are as thick as they are evil.

My catalogue? I didn't bring up the raid on the bookshop. Also it's not my fault if Israel continues to commit crimes every day and people mention them.

I just find the constant whataboutery, to the point that posters appear to be googling to find what they feel are comparable atrocities committed by the other side going back nearly 20 years a bit tiresome and desperate.

I also think you're reaching to argue that you were posting to fit in with the thread topic to be honest. Unless the topic is just every bad thing done by Hamas in the last 20 years, in which case you'd be correct.

Perhaps if you don’t want your catalogue of Israeli wrong doings to be interrupted you should post on a thread that isn’t specifically about Hamas …
If you post on this thread you can hardly complain when people revert to the thread topic 🙄

Yes. I think going back 18 years to score a point is a bit much but that's just my opinion. I don't think you have to do that every time someone mentions something bad that Israel has done.

Oh? Well this IS a thread about Hamas..

And it’s worth reminding everyone what Hamas do to their own people when they dissent.

It looked like you were using the murder of this man 18 years ago to "both sides" what happened on Sunday.

I don’t think it was point scoring. I was bringing the discussion back to the thread title.

The Irish embassy listed those diplomats so you can take their word for it.

You say you're not in favour of banning books or curtailing freedom of expression yet here you are defending it.

Anyone Israel brutalises/arrests is a terrorist. All those doctors, nurses, children even. I can't believe people still buy it.

The point is that what I 'believe' is of no importance. Neither you nor I have the evidence to know either way. None of the reports I have read list all those diplomats, so I'll take your word for it. Im certainly not a fan of controlling freedom of expression or banning books (thought Hamas are pretty keen on it) but I am a fan of clamping down on terrorism and a good way of avoiding getting arrested is not indulging in it. We'll see what happens.

Do you really believe that? That there was a legitimate reason for this and that what happened was reasonable?

Well diplomats from Ireland, Belgium, France, the Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland, the UK, Finland, Italy and EU representatives disagree with you. They have said it's an attack on freedom of expression and fundamental democratic values.