American proposal to clear out Gaza

@1dayatatime

I agree with a lot of your points in that the political stability of Jordan and Egypt are of importance and I didn't pretend this is at all easy. The point is that Jordan is managing to exist as a state and is not a regional threat. There are millions of Palestinians in Jordan (or of Palestinian heritage) yet Hamas or similar groups have not had the power to become an immediate threat to Israel. Another point is that many Palestinians can be seen as Jordanians and over time the people will have a joint identity Palestinian and Jordanian and importantly live in a state.

Jordan and Egypt would need a hell of a lot of persuasion I agree to allow a new influx of Gazans but I don't think we should entirely remove this from the table when as I have said previously a 2 state solution for Palestine looks in real political terms increasingly remote and Gaza will never be territory with enough resource to support a people.

The world has always had fluctuating states and the idea of statehood is a complex one. Not everyone gets a state they want (look at the kurds) and sometimes there is partition of countries to form new ones due to internal tension(India/Pakistan). It is also obvious you can retain cultures and identity in other states (both Jews and Muslims retain distinct cultures in the UK for example).

All I am saying is that in the real world it is perhaps inevitable you need to look at what works in terms of lasting peace and prosperity. To my mind October 7th may be was a Rubicon that showed Gaza having peaceful relations with Israel whether or not as part of a 2 state solution was high on impossible and therefore people are drawn to think 'outside the box'

Given the strong level of support for the Palestinian cause in Ireland I would be interested to see what the views of Irish people are on offering either temporary or permanent sanctuary to Palestinian (importantly on a voluntary basis).

We have enough experience of our land being carved up and "developed" or planted by foreign powers to know it never ends well for the native population.

Once Palestinians leave they will never ever be able to return (how will they compete to buy or rent property in an area that is now a 'riveria" with casinos and a playground for the wealthy) and for that reason I do not think any country should host Palestinians. It plays right into the hands of Trump and the billionaires.
They don't need sanctuary, a population that has fought for 50 years to stay on their land will not leave voluntarily. People underestimate the nationalist pride of a colonized country or one that has fought for freedom.

It will never be temporary. We all know that.

Plus it rains here all the time.

Please feel free to clarify

You expressed surprise as to why I couldn’t understand how people could support the killing of innocent civilians based on the fact that I have links to North of Ireland…

I think you're misunderstanding the point.

Not sure why someone reported my post. It's common knowledge that in many communities in the north there was support for paramilitaries or at least an understanding for their cause. And that continues to this day even though support for peace is almost universal.

@mids2019

"One thing that often is missing from these debates is that possibly half of Jordanians have Palestinian routes and many have Jordanian citizenship. Though the relationship between Jordan and Israel is far from perfect importantly they do not threaten each other miltiarily . There are many Jordanians that perhaps do not like Israel but they do see a peace dividend and there is a general interest in that state for economic advancement and stability. With global support what can't Jordan be persuaded to take more refugees from Gaza? It seems that over time Palestianins have retained a culture but also have an InpuT into a state and this to my mind seems a better fate for the region."

Firstly the most important principle is that any movement of Palestinian people out of Gaza and into other countries either on a temporary or permanent basis must absolutely only be done on a voluntary basis. I can see the logic that some Palestinian may wish to move to another country either permanently given the level of destruction or temporarily whilst reconstruction occurs.

Secondly I would very strongly disagree that either Jordan or Egypt (especially Jordan) should host such refugees either temporarily or permanently. The last time Jordan offered sanctuary to Palestinian refugees their hospitality was repaid by the Palestinians attempting a coup and a take over of Jordan. Any repeat of taking in Palestinian refugees would also see Jordan unknowingly taking in hardened radicals that would seek to destabilise (with Iranian help) what is a country that despite a lack of natural resources (and in large part thanks to the Jordanian monarchy) has managed to avoid the turmoil and civil wars that had plagued neighbouring countries.

Given the strong level of support for the Palestinian cause in Ireland I would be interested to see what the views of Irish people are on offering either temporary or permanent sanctuary to Palestinian (importantly on a voluntary basis).

Mine too.

It is about having power. Nothing more and nothing less. That is why Iran arms terrorists throughout the Middle East. That and their absolute hatred of Jewish people in Israel.

I think pp should be mindful of how much support you can post for terrorists in the UK

I completely agree with you there @OpheliaWasntMad

It's just as we have seen there is so many incidents like this and there hasn't been those awful individuals reprimanded.

It could be argued that this desperation is leading to people taking the situation into their own hands and groups like Hamas are gaining support as the only way to stand up to them.

Then Hamas commits the most evil of crimes, the bad eggs in the IDF retaliate and the cycle continues.

This is how I would argue the lines are blurred in this conflict.

Traumatised people who have lost everything and whose feelings have been numbed by their loss do turn to terrorist organisations . I agree with you there.
Ironically those terrorists don’t care about them or their trauma - instead they knowingly contribute to it.

You have your own understanding of what’s happened in Gaza. That’s how you justify the violence. Thousands of children dead and maimed? - Human shields. A population purposely starved? - But Hamas. The place completely flattened and made unliveable? Tunnels. Children shot in the head by snipers? Sad once offs

You don’t see the horror of it. “Self defence” using all that military right against a stateless people with no proper government or military. I’m sure your neither an idiot or stupid.

I don’t think it’s ok for innocent people to be targeted either but I do understand how ordinary people support it.

This always amazes me too. The most Pro Palestinian stance I can think of is to be anti Hamas. They've bought nothing but sorrow and destruction.

It seems however on here that Pro Palestine is actually more hatred of Israel than anything else. My mind is boggled every day.

That sounds like a war crime / an atrocity.
Sadly they happen in all wars. You will have some deeply nasty individuals in any army who will misuse their power.
I hope they are all brought to account. But I know it’s unlikely

And why its so disgusting that there isnt more of a push to free Palestinians from Hamas. Thats what a pro-Palestinian Solidarity Campaign should be about. Instead, while Oct 7 was ongoing they organised an anti-Israel march.

I agree with you

The issue I see is that the lines are being blurred in this conflict

A ten year old boy was fatally shot in the abdomen by IDF soldiers in the West Bank ten days ago. The solider then held up the ambulance and said to the childs father "God Willing your son will die".

Is that an act of self defense in war?

Is an act of aggression in reprisal to that self defense or terrorism?

Re the north of Ireland
I know how difficult it was to dissent in any way when terrorist groups terrorised their own communities and targeted their own people if they were not seen as supportive.
This is why I have great sympathy with Gazans who might loathe Hamas but are not free to voice their views.

Agreed. Pretty outrageous, and disturbing when you think of the terror the republican and unionist terrorists caused in their own communities as well as everyone else.

I’m pretty disgusted by the posters who appear to be suggesting that coming from the north of Ireland should make you a terrorist sympathiser.

Yes
But acts in self defence ( war ) are of a different nature to terrorist acts .
But it’s never ok if innocent people are deliberately targeted.

I don’t think im the one who is being simplistic.

I don’t believe the answer to injustice is to target and kill innocent victims .

Yes . I do have close links to the north .
But Ive never supported innocent people being targeted and harmed by terrorists.
Not sure why anyone would find that surprising.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-97c21e2d-3d57-40bb-b9f6-bd56d901c130