American proposal to clear out Gaza

But although the perception is there, the numbers are very clear.
Clear about what? Both groups are discriminated against and experience hate crime why do you need to prove which group is persecuted more? Why use that information to minimise someone's experience of discrimination and hate.
The stats also only part of the story, they are based on what was reported, I suspect Muslims don't report as much.

there is a lot of evidence and research that says Muslims massively under-report hate crimes due to a number of factors including mistrust of the police. I don’t know what under-reporting is like for other groups.

As I said, there is discrimination against all visible minorities.

But although the perception is there, the numbers are very clear.

They do experience because at the same time there are less people. Hence why the proportions are bigger.

can you remind me who were the summer riots against? What religion was the most hated one by those rioting and setting hotels alight ? There is def hate against Muslims in this country. (& in many others)

I think that hurt can skew perception. But the numbers don't really agree.

Sadly, any visible minority will experience discrimination.

But for example hate crimes numbers in England in Wales, for the year to March 2024 show:

Jews: 3282 in a population of 271,000.
That's 1 for every 83 people

Muslims: 3866 in a population of 3.87 million.
That's 1 for every 1000 people

Disabled people: 11719 in a population of 10.4 million.
That's 1 for every 887 people.

Whilst obviously, there should be no hate crimes at all, this doesn't back up a view that there is widespread systemic and societal hatred of and discrimination against Muslims. Jewish people experience hate crimes 12 times more than Muslims, and disabled people experience hate crimes at a higher rate than Muslims.

@LetThereBeLove As I’m sure many others here would agree @Scirocco has very much about humanity, unity, justice and peace.

I've not been opposed to that. I've consistently advocated for dialogue, building better relationships, working together, etc. even when those efforts have been rejected. What I cannot do is support either a solution which proposes the erasure of Palestine or Israel, or support the commission of crimes against humanity.

It wasn't at all obvious to me nor I doubt to many Jewish people.

Scirocco what you describe is exactly what is happening to Jewish people so perhaps we should be sticking together. After all, Pastor Neimoller's poem is well known: 'First they came...and I did not speak out..'

I think we should trust that @Scirocco is better placed to comment on this one.

It's not just based on my thoughts. It's based on the data. There is evidence of discrimination and prejudice across multiple sectors of society, from criminal justice system outcomes (both for accused individuals and victims of crimes), to nursery acceptance figures (children with 'Muslim names' have been disproportionately declined from waiting lists for placements), to employment statistics (individuals who are identifiably 'Muslim' in some aspect of their applications are less likely to be successful in applications than identical applications with no identifiable characteristics - same applies for some other minority groups too), etc. The 2024 riots showed some of the depth of hatred for Muslims - not Islamist terrorists but ordinary people who just happen to be Muslim - people were trapped in buildings, assaulted in the street, left terrified by the level of hostility. When the riots ended, people justified them - members of the public were quite comfortable saying that Muslims had only themselves to blame. Figures show major increases in anti-Muslim hate incidents and hate crimes, and surveys have shown that the majority of such incidents go unreported so won't even count towards those figures. The UK government has a policy of non-engagement with the MCB, excluding it from discussions since 2009 (now, there are many criticisms that can be discussed about the MCB, but a policy of shutting out representatives of a faith indefinitely - rather than being willing to re-visit this at some point over the past 16 years - does result in a lack of access for people from that faith to important discussions about tackling inequality). When it's possible to look at pretty much every level of society - from the government to the dining table - and find evidence of discrimination and prejudice against a group, that pretty strongly suggests there's an issue. However, another element of that prejudice and discrimination is that people reject the reports and the evidence and try to say it's just feelings or just imagined.

I don't think so, @scirocco . I'm sorry that you do think so.

There will never be peace regardless of who's leading. If you were a Palestinian, nor would you wish it. Your view on who is a terrorist is mute. I lost family the King David Hotel.

Indeed. But only one spouse sees their family members as necessary sacrifices in the war for the whole of the house.
Makes mediation quite difficult.

Both Hamas and the Israeli government have expressed views opposed to a two-state solution. That's partly why the Israeli government facilitated the funding of Hamas.

Agree.
Unfortunately one spouse would rather die than share.

Or, the parties (through a mediation/negotiation process) divide the assets equitably.

A two-state solution recognises the rights of both Israel and Palestine to exist.

Agree. Those that agree with trumps cleaning Gaza idea do you support a 2 state solution? And if yes, who would these states be? as one of them has been kicked out of their country “to clean it”?

Have to disagree that ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is the only solution here.

This thread is unbelievable.

Fair enough. As it happens, I wasn’t calling the situation equivalent. I did agree with part of another post though that said there are comparisons between the idea that Gaza’s should be simply moved somewhere else, and the history of Jewish people being moved from their homes in Eastern Europe - and it put me in mind of the fact that it was supported by others at the time instead of being condemned, and so on. But I am really sorry it that seemed like I am trying to minimise the holocaust, as that honestly was not my intention.

I don't agree that calling an equivalence between the appalling situation the Gazans are in and the absolute utter unimaginable horror of the Holocaust is sympathetic to the Jewish point of all, at all.

Both are awful, but I believe you can state that without drawing an equivalence.

As to the rest of your post, we've all been round in circles many times on these boards. I don't think Netanyahu or Hamas are listening unfortunately.

Both sides have a legitimate claim on the land. Both sides have committed atrocities. The conflict goes back 1000's of years. Sadly we are not solving it today. I actually don't believe we are any closer than on 6th October.

I just find the Holocaust Inversion particularly difficult to not comment on.

@dairydebris Of course I agree that Hamas dehumanises Jewish people, a thousand times over! And of course I don’t support Hamas. And of course I feel sympathetic to Jewish people, and of course that aren’t even the words to describe the horror of October 7th, and I don’t think anyone on any of these threads has ever argued otherwise, not for a second?

But that doesn’t mean that Palestinian lives are worthless, or that what has happened to Gaza can ever be justified as “self defence”, and if you can’t see that then something is wrong.

These thread are absolutely full of posters who jump on anyone who expresses sympathy for Palestinians or who criticises the behaviour of the IDF or decisions made by the Isreali government, and they immediately accuse those posters of not caring about October 7th, or being Hamas supporters… 🙄

Both things can be wrong. Seeing lives as worthless and seeing deliberate murder as “part of war” is wrong. It’s wrong on both sides.

In order to justify all the horrific deaths of Palestinians at the hands of the IDF then you must have already dehumanised them in your mind, and it doesn’t matter if you dress it up as “self defence” or “about the hostages”, you are still justifying mass murder.

You are creating a false equivalence.

And you're minimising what actually happened in the holocaust.

And would you agree that Hamas also dehumanizes Jewish people? To a lesser or greater extent than the Israeli government dehumanizes Palestinians?

Do your answers to those questions make you feel anymore sympathic towards the Jewish nation, given that they've already suffered through this before?

Yes, I did. And that was carried out by people who dehumanised their victims, and that process started well before they got to the concentration camps That was my point.