American proposal to clear out Gaza

Once again for those who haven't listened.

Western powers did not 'give away' land.
Both groups have roots in the area. Both groups had been fighting for 100's if not 1000's of years over the land, in particular Jerusalem which is extremely important to both Jews and Muslims. The British attempted to separate them then left them to it. The Jews accepted the division of land and declared a state. The Palestinian Arabs did not.

The British did not create conflict where there was harmony. They failed to administate a lasting, peaceful solution yes. As has every other power in the region before and since.

Understanding how we got to this place is key to understanding how to get away from it.

Nothing to do with being inherently violent, or the wrong sort of victims.

@mollyfolk suggested that the Palestinians didn't get as much "support of the international community" as Japan did after WW2, which is clearly nonsense.

Japan had to make some pretty painful concessions after they surrendered. They had to give up territory, make government reforms, disarm, permit occupation, open the country to trade. Their alternative choice was to not surrender, in which case the Allies may have bombed them again. They chose to surrender, with all the concessions demanded. And so they were able to rebuild.

The Palestinians also make choices. But they can only choose from certain possibilities, just as Japan had to. 20 years ago, the Palestinians seemed to have a 2SS as an option. That option required some big concessions which they didn't want to make, especially around the right to return. They didn't choose to make those concessions.

The Palestinians still have agency, both as individuals and as a group, but 20 years of violence later and especially after October 7th, things have moved on. I can't see how Israel would accept a 2SS any more - so that isn't an option open to the Palestinians now - certainly not in the form suggested 20 years ago.

Trump has made a suggestion, although pretty light on details (such as whether it would be voluntary/mandatory, temporary/permanent). There's a lot of noise about it, which was probably his intention. It will be interesting to see what suggestions come out of all that noise.

There are ( arguably) two possible good outcomes from Trump’s proposal
1 A consensus that ethnic cleansing is unacceptable
2 A more urgent debate about alternatives to Trump’s mad plan

For some it appears that the Palestinians are not the right kind of "victims", their refusal to capitulate and happily accept subjugation or better yet "move" or die is too defiant.

I mean after being ethnically cleansed, they should be jumping for joy at being offered 22% of Historical Palestine by their benevolent benefactors.

The Aid is there because this is a mess originally created by Western powers intervention in the region, redrawing maps and giving away land that was not theirs to. The aid allows countries that provide it to continue looking away and pretend that they are just, kind and charitable.

Surviving on aid alone was never going to be viable that’s not how you build an economy. 80% of the people were already living in poverty. The blockade ensured that they could never thrive economically and Netanayu’s government was happy to prop up Hamas - there would be no invites to the White House, no viable partner for peace talks.

I hope you're not blaming the Palestinians alone that a two state solution hasn't come to pass.

How do you think universities and hospitals were built? Which money do you think was used for this? How do you think they’ve recovered from the previous wars in the last 20 years ?

You could argue till the cows come home over who was at fault during each of the peace negotiations. the fact is it’s been a long time since any meaningful attempt to give the Palestinians the option of a peaceful political path to a thriving state of their own.

Of course mistakes were made by the Palestinian side too. Does this condemn them to suffer forever?

You seem to be arguing that they are inherently unable to live in peace simply because they are Palestinian. A common view for some posters that Palestinians are inherently violent who irrationally hate Israel. And this justifies their suffering.

The Palestinians have had enormous amounts of international support: billions of funding and also multiple high profile summits with huge amounts of time, attention and focus on finding a solution - not only from regional leaders but also from multiple US presidents. Pretty good going for a group of 5 million people!

But they didn't agree a viable solution at any of those summits. And they haven't stopped fighting and attacking Israel.

The Japanese did. Some of the concessions demanded by the Allies were incredibly difficult and harsh to Japan. But the Japanese did concede them, in order to move on and achieve peace.

Trump shut down USAID.
Who is going to pay for this 'grand plan'?
All those poor Gazans could hope for is a tarp somewhere, lingering in a refugee camp for decades.
I'm calling Trump's BS.
It'll be a cold day in hell before this comes to pass. It's all a ploy to get people to talk about him (well, big TICK here, I'm guilty as well) and for his corrupt 'strongmen' cronies to look good.

Japan is a great example of an occupation that was a success because the goal was always to have a stable, democratic, peaceful end. Nothing like that is being proposed here.

Both those countries got a step up to ensuring they could rebuild . In fact, great effort was put into ensuring that they thrived.

if they had been treated differently they would be woe is us. It’s nonsense to pretend the Palestinians could have “moved on and thrived” without the support of the international community.

Maybe.

Moving Palestinian civilians out of the region would cut Hamas support.

Perhaps it's all just a negotiating tactic. As in- this is the alternative under Hamas. This is where Hamas has bought it to...

It's a pre cursor to whatever else bat shit suggestion is next.

Move the moderates out. Allow moderate voices and leadership to rise elsewhere. Hamas can stay with vastly reduced recruitment pool and vastly reduced funding. Or alternatively just bomb them to oblivion. Rebuild. Make shed load of money for my buddies rebuilding. Move the now deradicalized moderates back. Declare Palestinian state.

Not saying it's my plan btw. Just saying.

I never thought I'd see the day that members of Mumsnet were openly calling for ethnic cleansing.

There is no justification for this.
No but
No however
No circumstances which render it excusable.

The idea of Mumsnetters from the comfort of the UK casually suggesting ethnic cleansing against the survivors of genocide makes me wonder if we've stepped back about 90 years.

It is terrifying.

Probably what people want is to live in peace. If they’re not going to be allowed to live in peace in Gaza then they’ll choose to go somewhere else. This is not voluntary displacement. They should be allowed to live in Gaza.

It feels like now that Trump has thrown out suggestions that few want in gaza or for gaza that it will make different suggestions come up.

Rather than continuing as has been allowed for decades, victims, unable to move forward through the decades still talking about 80 years or so ago, perpetual refugees, never able to do anything, always reliant on aid, agree a separate state, just hate ongoing. Imagine if after the WW2 the Germans and Japanese did the woe is us for 80 years. Both nations had massive losses but rebuilt their nations to what they are today to benefit their peoples. Hirosima and Nagasaki were dreadful, awful events and the Japanese said never again and look at that country now, its amazing.

But sure why would the ceasefire even hold now?? Why Hamas would release any more hostages, they were the only “chip” they had. Netanyahu isn’t even pretending that he wants the ceasefire to hold. Why would they start saying this so openly now before the hostages are safe? I don’t think the Israeli administration wants to release more Palestinian prisoners and it’s happy to sacrifice the rest of the hostages, they were only “collateral damage” for many in the government anyway. I think it’s clear now that their plan was to goad Hamas into refusing to release the rest of the hostages, resume the bombing and simultaneously allow Palestinians to “voluntarily” leave.

They just didn’t think that the US was going to make it all so easy for them.

Or is it the expectation that only Hamas will choose to stay, and then Isreal can happily kill
anyone left, with the justification being “they chose to stay so we know they are Hamas” ?

I have heard that mentioned a couple of times in commentary about the idea. Very scary one. Not dissimilar to what they did when they were clearing northern Gaza, anyone that remained were considered Hamas

Where does Trump believe that Hamas will go though? Does he think that if any left then they would stop being part of Hamas and just live ordinary and peaceful lives elsewhere?!

Or is it the expectation that only Hamas will choose to stay, and then Isreal can happily kill
anyone left, with the justification being “they chose to stay so we know they are Hamas” ?

I think they will start again once the official ceasefire phase is over, but with one difference this time. The difference being that Palestinians will be “allowed to leave”. How that would work I don’t know though, unless the plan is to forcibly open access to Egypt, or for Egypt to agree to let them enter..

Absolutely, what Trump who calls himself a "stable genius" has inadvertently done is make a lot of people come out openly and on the record arguing for ethnic cleansing. It provides the answer to why Gaza was ultimately decimated and mostly destroyed.

In the excitement of getting something that factions of the Israeli government have argued for over decades, many supporters are openly coming out supporting the idea. When even Piers Morgan has to tell Alan Dershowitz (arguing that the Sudetenland displacement the 1930s was a good thing) reconsider the implications of what he is arguing for, there's a massive problem.

You are also right that it will be Israelis that ultimately pay. The reaction from MAGA has been surprising and extremely angry and emotional. Ranging from "I don't even like Palestinians but this is morally wrong" to "I didn't vote for this" and "No, more wars or money for Israel".
Trump has unwittingly provided the impetus for a coalition of different groups to unite against him.

I never suggested Hamas remain. Ethnic cleansing is not the answer.

Hamas stay in charge then Israel will rightly see a terrorist state on their border, wanting to destroy them.
Trump and Netanyahu stay in charge and Gaza has a state on their border wanting to forcibly remove and cleanse them. After killing over 60,000 of them, displacing close to 2 million of them and destroying the majority of their homes and infrastructure.

I simply say, it's easy to understand why some Israelis would support ethnically cleansing the terrorists from their doorstep. I haven't offered my opinion on whether it's right or wrong or whether it'll bring peace.

I'm saying- Had you a neighbor who'd been threatening to kill you for years you might find yourself somewhat relieved to find they are being forcibly relocated.

Any chance Hamas are currently running around in panic at the idea of the loss of their seemingly endless pool of martyrs and cash cows? Perhaps re thinking their plan for political ends through violent means?

( before anyone pulls me up on it, I don't see Palestinians as martyrs or cash cows, but Hamas certainly does )

No it doesn’t but won’t continue allowing you twisting my and @Dulra words. It’s quite clear what myself and dulra say: there is no justification for ethnic cleansing.

@mids2019 stop taking posters for fools we all know the difference between individuals deciding they want to leave of their own fruition and ethnic cleansing. It is clear you're in favour of it so not sure who you're trying to convince it's ok, you or us.

So @EasterIssland Hamas are fighting for 'their' land which does rather equate Hamas with all Palestinians doesn't it? As @Dulra says not all Palestinians are terrorists. But if Hamas stay in charge then Israel will rightly see a terrorist state on their border, wanting to destroy them. Surely you can see that?