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Conflict in the Middle East

Hamas and Gaza celebrates

641 replies

LetThereBeLove · 16/01/2025 12:37

Hillel Nueur, International human rights lawyer, writer, Executive Director of United Nations Watch writes: 'Never before in history has a side claimed that they suffered a genocide and at the same time that they won the war they had started.'

If you read only a handful of messages on social media today and watch the news, people in Gaza are celebrating and Hamas state they will continue (their barbarity) until Israel is eradicated. I won't repost these as anyone can find them easily.

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immigrant101 · 21/01/2025 19:56

Again hamas is a terrorist organisation Israel is supposed to be a democratic state and an ally why are we comparing the two ?
I know what you are going to say next "human shields" is like a script
Hamas are not in west bank take a look at the latest videos coming out of there these days
Israel lost the media war give it up no one believes your excuses anymore
Was the word health organisation van on top of a hamas tunnel as well? I lost count of all the incidents israel
Is "investigating"

SharonEllis · 21/01/2025 19:55

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I was setting out the international legal framework. I think people who deliberately carry out military operations in civilian buildings are psychopaths.

Oodiks · 21/01/2025 19:39

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So as long as Hamas use hospitals and schools as their bases, they are free to do whatever they want with no consequences? You seriously think that's reasonable?

immigrant101 · 21/01/2025 19:37

@NoisyBear those animations as well as the guy with the list was almost like watching a satire or a comedy if their actions were not so vile

immigrant101 · 21/01/2025 19:36

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Pebblesonthebeach40 · 21/01/2025 14:41

EasterIssland · 21/01/2025 10:31

And journalists when they’ve visited these tunnels(IDF has invited several of them to tours to these tunnels ) under the hospitals haven’t been proven that there was a Hamas HQ beneath them (so no reason to bomb / request to empty them). Also, doctors have spoken about not seeing Hamas using them for their military purposes

so these tunnels exist? Yes
are Hamas using them? Yes
are Hamas using the tunnels beneath the hospitals ? Still to be proven

Exactly what I said earlier.

NoisyBear · 21/01/2025 14:06

SharonEllis · 21/01/2025 13:54

You can if the tunnel is being used for military purposes. They arent wine cellars.

Israel built the one at Al shifa as 'overflow' for the hospital apparently. Not a wine cellar. Did they provide proof that their bunker was being used by Hamas recently, I mean actual proof not a cgi video dreamt up by people with big imaginations. You will admit that they never showed any proof that their cgi animations were anything but fantasy?

Whatsinanamehey · 21/01/2025 14:01

SharonEllis · 21/01/2025 13:54

You can if the tunnel is being used for military purposes. They arent wine cellars.

That's exactly what I said?

SharonEllis · 21/01/2025 13:54

Whatsinanamehey · 21/01/2025 12:56

Exactly. There has to be proof it was used for military purposes. You can't just bomb a hospital on the premise that a tunnel or bunker exists underground.

You can if the tunnel is being used for military purposes. They arent wine cellars.

Whatsinanamehey · 21/01/2025 12:56

SharonEllis · 21/01/2025 12:52

No it does not have to be a 'command centre'. It has to be used for military purposes, and other conditions are in place too. Full briefing on the law here https://uklficharity.com/a-briefing-note-on-hospital

Exactly. There has to be proof it was used for military purposes. You can't just bomb a hospital on the premise that a tunnel or bunker exists underground.

SharonEllis · 21/01/2025 12:52

Whatsinanamehey · 21/01/2025 09:56

But then again it doesnt have to be to be a legit target under international law.

Yes it does Sharon. You don't get to bomb hospitals based on speculation.

No it does not have to be a 'command centre'. It has to be used for military purposes, and other conditions are in place too. Full briefing on the law here https://uklficharity.com/a-briefing-note-on-hospital

EasterIssland · 21/01/2025 10:31

Auvergne63 · 21/01/2025 10:24

The tunnels under Gaza are well known but they are far from "new".
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/07/26/335332220/the-long-history-of-the-gaza-tunnels

And journalists when they’ve visited these tunnels(IDF has invited several of them to tours to these tunnels ) under the hospitals haven’t been proven that there was a Hamas HQ beneath them (so no reason to bomb / request to empty them). Also, doctors have spoken about not seeing Hamas using them for their military purposes

so these tunnels exist? Yes
are Hamas using them? Yes
are Hamas using the tunnels beneath the hospitals ? Still to be proven

NoisyBear · 21/01/2025 10:13

SharonEllis · 21/01/2025 07:57

Not necrssarily. Read up on intrrnational law. Hospitals lose protection if they are used for military purposes essentially. There is absolute evidence of a tunnel under Al Shifa.

The bunker Israel built?

NoisyBear · 21/01/2025 10:08

Oodiks · 21/01/2025 02:41

Hamas are the de facto government in Gaza and therefore responsible for infrastructure. Unfortunately, it is difficult to get building materials into Gaza because Hamas keep using it to build tunnels, and rockets, so Israel has to limit the amount they have access to. Perhaps if Hamas were more focused on supporting their people in Palestine than on destroying Israel, they would be able to create better conditions for their people.

Israel keep bulldozing people's home. They also have a problem with settlers setting peoples homes on fire. They have a problem with settlers building on land that isn't theirs. Would it be acceptable to you if there was a blockade on Israel to prevent them from getting their hand on heavy machinery? Anything that could be used to start fires? Anything they could use to build?

Whatsinanamehey · 21/01/2025 09:59

Over ten hospitals bombed, some more than once, resulting in many deaths and unspeakable carnage. Yet, it sounds like some people are trying to excuse it.
I thought we were all on the same page about how despicable these actions are but clearly not.

Dulra · 21/01/2025 09:58

SharonEllis · 21/01/2025 09:52

So first there were no tunnels. Now we all accept that yes, of course everyone knows there are tunnels. Putting aside the evidence that they are used, you have to be very special indeed to think that Hamas wouldn't use those tunnels if they were there. Air conditioned , with electrical power, big enough to stand up in. Seriously, you cant think we are that dense. Whether every single one is a 'command centre' how on earth would I know. I doubt it. But then again it doesnt have to be to be a legit target under international law. All this frantic moving of goal posts is dizzying.

So first there were no tunnels.
Where have people said that?

All this frantic moving of goal posts is dizzying.
There isn't any frantic movement of goal posts. Everyone has been very consistent with what they have said about the tunnels over the past number of months. There has been no evidence as yet to demonstrate they were used as a command centre under hospitals to justify the bombing of hospitals.

Whether every single one is a 'command centre' how on earth would I know.
Exactly how would you know but you seem to think that it justifies bombing hospitals and bringing the health system in Gaza to a complete collapse

Whatsinanamehey · 21/01/2025 09:56

But then again it doesnt have to be to be a legit target under international law.

Yes it does Sharon. You don't get to bomb hospitals based on speculation.

SharonEllis · 21/01/2025 09:52

So first there were no tunnels. Now we all accept that yes, of course everyone knows there are tunnels. Putting aside the evidence that they are used, you have to be very special indeed to think that Hamas wouldn't use those tunnels if they were there. Air conditioned , with electrical power, big enough to stand up in. Seriously, you cant think we are that dense. Whether every single one is a 'command centre' how on earth would I know. I doubt it. But then again it doesnt have to be to be a legit target under international law. All this frantic moving of goal posts is dizzying.

Pebblesonthebeach40 · 21/01/2025 09:48

ExitPersuedByAMemory · 21/01/2025 09:29

Thank you for this @Pebblesonthebeach40. But this doesn’t acknowledge that the refugees were welcomed in Palestine though? It just looks like unfortunately there were detention camps in Cyprus which is saddening, but again nothing to do with Palestine? It doesn’t explain how overnight many Palestinians lost the rights to their homes because centuries ago, it was called Israel?

They weren't welcome in the area. Palestine wasn't a country

Pebblesonthebeach40 · 21/01/2025 09:44

Even Iran comment on the extensive network. "According to Iranian military officer Hassan Hassanzadeh, who commands the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps from Tehran, the Gaza Strip's tunnels run for more than 500 kilometres (310 mi) throughout the territory."

Imagine 310 miles of tunnels under a small land area. Hamas can get around, evade capture, avoid direct fighting, hide away, hide hostages. Hamas can move underground without detection. It makes it incredibly difficult to defeat them when they operate underground like rats. No out and fight like traditional warfare. It's referred to as guerilla warfare.

The poor people are left on the surface whilst they are underground.

Pebblesonthebeach40 · 21/01/2025 09:39

ExitPersuedByAMemory · 21/01/2025 09:06

I can’t seem to open the link @Pebblesonthebeach40. I also I can’t find the link to a separate article where it supports the claim that there are tunnels under hospitals. Both links would be appreciated. I was confused by the mention of tunnels because one second it’s Hamas who built it, then I’m reading it was built by Israelis and then I’m reading that there tunnels under hospitals so just saying “tunnels” is very broad to me.

It's not one tunnel. It's a huge network of them.

The Reuters News Agency report is long and it opens for me.

To keep simple some details of the extensive network. Some were built by Israelies many, many years ago and others by hamas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip#:~:text=Today%20there%20are%20360%20kilometers,360%20kilometers%20of%20tunnels%20underground

Palestinian tunnel warfare in the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip#:~:text=Today%20there%20are%20360%20kilometers,360%20kilometers%20of%20tunnels%20underground

statsfun · 21/01/2025 09:37

ExitPersuedByAMemory · 21/01/2025 09:11

@statsfun It’s all very well to say to look at history and then say a name of a country has not changed and then cite said history. Knowing full well, it was called Palestine and it’s perfectly ok to acknowledge that the name of a country has changed to a name that you’re saying was there historically. I didn’t get a chance to read your post about the Ottoman Empire. That does not mean it was never called Palestine was it? And it does not mean that what was once called Palestine is now called Israel and cite history to claim why it never changed. In doing so, you’re denying the existence of Palestine that was once there before 1948 and by doing that, you’re removing the right of Palestinians who have wanted to return to their homeland or have had their homes destroyed by settler communities etc.

Edited

So you're not going to bother to read enough background to understand what you see around you. OK.

ExitPersuedByAMemory · 21/01/2025 09:29

Pebblesonthebeach40 · 21/01/2025 08:24

Where to begin!

No, Jewish refugees were not welcome to Palestine in 1948 until the establishment of the State of Israel. However, after the state was established, Jewish refugees were able to freely land.

"Immigration to Palestine (Aliyah) remained severely limited until the establishment of the State of Israel in May 1948. Thousands of Jewish displaced persons sought to enter Palestine illegally: between 1945 and 1948, the British authorities interned many of these would-be immigrants to Palestine in detention camps on Cyprus."

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/refugees#:~:text=Immigration%20to%20Palestine%20(Aliyah)%20remained,of%20Israel%20in%20May%201948.

Thank you for this @Pebblesonthebeach40. But this doesn’t acknowledge that the refugees were welcomed in Palestine though? It just looks like unfortunately there were detention camps in Cyprus which is saddening, but again nothing to do with Palestine? It doesn’t explain how overnight many Palestinians lost the rights to their homes because centuries ago, it was called Israel?

Dulra · 21/01/2025 09:24

Pebblesonthebeach40 · 21/01/2025 08:54

I've quoted the exact phrase denying tunnels under hospitals.

I've also.linked separately an article showing the extension tunnel network including under hospitals.

No one has denied there are tunnels under hospitals, evidence of the huge tunnel network is not that hard to demonstrate. No evidence has been provided on whether they were used by Hamas for military purposes.

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