Hamas and Gaza celebrates

It appears you were misunderstood here for suggesting that it was legal to bomb a hospital if it was used for military purposes. At least this appears to be what other posters and I believe you were inferring. Thank you for confirming that this is only the case if it’s proportionate.

I said several times that there were other conditions. One of those is indeed that attacks are proportionate. Of course the hospital will deny it, not least because Hamas would deal with them if they didnt. Neither you nor I have access to the information or expertise to know whether Israel acted within those conditions.

@SharonEllis has used a link by an organisation called UK lawyers for Israel as proof that it was legal for the IDF to bomb the Al Shifa hospital.

What she doesn’t point out is that even her own link states it must be shown that the bombing of the hospital should be proportionate.

She hasn’t provided any links to show the IDF’s actions were proportionate and therefore legal. That’s not surprising as it’s not been addressed by the International Criminal Courts - or any court.

So there was a hideout tunnel under this hospital according to her Reuters link. The link also states the hospital officials have denied it was used as a Hamas command centre.

I cannot see how she can say “it’s a question of facts” and with the implication it was therefore legal for the IDF to have caused the total destruction of the hospital complex and killing of many innocent civilian patients there 🙄

FFs. Read what I said. I said military use of a hospital means that under international law it is no longer protected, along with other conditions, as outlined in the link I included. Military use does not have to be a 'command centre'. Different examples of military use are in the link. This is just a question of facts.

Do you write to every media outlet to ask to see their 'independent verification' for every story they publish or do you trust that they jave professional processrs in place? You're the one who trawls the internet for stories every day. do you post up your 'independent verification' for each one? I haven't noticed. This story was posted by Reuters, not a random tik tokker. If you can find someone, with independent verification to disprove it go right ahead.

I believe the IDF had proof in the form of a calendar. This was their justification for a war crime @EasterIssland. And yet, the IDF could conscript anyone eligible for military service and somehow some of the posters on here will say, “But Khamas…” in order to justify war crimes. Apparently, according to @SharonEllis, “it doesnt have to be to be a legit target under international law”. Her actual words which left me gobsmacked. Which means some people are actually ok with bombing hospitals under the basis of speculation and I thought we’d all be in agreement that that is a war crime.

@ExitPersuedByAMemory I know. I have family there.
And at no point did I say all..... in the same way I wouldn't begin to believe all Palestinians have been radicalised. You have misunderstood what I wrote if that is what you took from that.

Also lots of countries have military service. (23 I think)

Is that a yes or a no to my question ? Has it been independently verified this exact tunnel was being used by Hamas ? If so , do you have a link ? As the one you’ve provided is only about what IDF says and IDF shows, so not independently verified

Apparently the fact that Hamas would be crazy not to use them is enough evidence for some.

Who else was using tunnels in gaza?

Do you know whether this has been verified by independent journalists / organisations?
by this I don’t mean the tunnel but that I was used by Hamas

Not sure what being new or otherwise has got to do with it & I dont recall that I said that. As I understand some tunnels are very old some newer. Some have air conditioning. Here's just one link - tunnel under the hospital & a kindergarden.https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-army-displays-tunnel-beneath-al-shifa-it-says-served-hamas-hideout-2023-11-22/

@stomachamelon Not all Israelis have been radicalised. There are many who actually want peace and co-exist and yet they know that this isn’t possible because of Bibi’s lust for war to avoid elections. There are Israeli conscientious objectors who are imprisoned because they refuse to participate in mandatory military service and in doing so they are labelled as “self-hating Jews”, some are even imprisoned for their pacifist beliefs. Some have even participated in this military service and were disillusioned after having to man checkpoints etc.

There are also rabbis as well as members of the orthodox community who actually believe the state of Israel should not even exist and do you know what the IDF does? These peaceful civilians are dragged in the streets and are humiliated by their own people. So where’s the mass outcry or is that only reserved for Hamas? Oh and this mandatory military service in Israel? It can’t be avoided. Young Israelis must be drafted into the IDF in Israel. So don’t you think that this also leads radicalisation and a mindless need to fight when these innocent, young people have no choice but to be conscripted?

@ExitPersuedByAMemory Crazy isn't it? Israel can build a bunker under a hospital then go Hamas would be crazy not to use it so we will deny care to premature babies and people on lifesupport, terrorise staff and raze the hospital to the ground and people actually go sounds legit, I see no problems there.

No I didn't. Go show me where in MY POSTS, I said what you are saying I said.

@immigrant101

We hear about Israelis are concerned about indoctrination of Palestinians against Jewish people. The video is an example that shows how it also works the other way too. Very sad that people can live with the obvious oppression of fellow humans and appear to have such little insight into how extreme their views appear.

Go back and read what I was responding to, and then read what I actually said fgs. You have misquoted me.

@Pebblesonthebeach40 I was meant to be quoting this post but I ended up quoting @SharonEllis instead. But my point still stands because you’re both essentially saying the same things.

You've started by posting a post of another. You've then tagged me in that post asking me questions about a post I didn't post. Youve then told me I've said things I haven't said (it's not my post!) and said it's disgusting. MN Conflict thread in the middle east, threads are most odd.

@SharonEllis Who do you mean by “we”? You don’t speak for me. So now you’re saying these tunnels are air-conditioned? As though they’re new? I cannot believe that you are justifying bombing hospitals under the basis of speculation.

@Pebblesonthebeach40 So if Israel knows this, why does it still bomb civilian populations? Are you also saying that if someone takes over another person, somehow they also lose the right to resist? They have no right to defend themselves against an apartheid? Is this why the Israeli government was ok with bulldozing homes to expand the settler communities.

Why is it with all that sophisticated gear, the IDF waits for its targets to go home to ensure mass destruction? How is that linked to Hamas? If Hamas is wrong for targeting civilians, don’t you think the Israeli government is as well? The IDF and the Israeli government have committed war crimes under their justification that Hamas is operating under hospitals when time and time again all the proof they had was one hospital that had a bunker created by Israel combined with some CGI footage. Did this justify the loss of innocent lives? Babies being killed?

I can never forget the picture that Jamie Lee Curtis shared with the captions “TERROR FROM THE SKIES” and then promptly deleting her post when it was pointed that these were Palestinian children and not Israelis.

And what do you mean by “moving of the goal posts”?? I think you are doing that by saying that “it doesn’t have to be a legit target under international law”. Your words not mine. What do you mean that it doesn’t have to be a legit target? You’re seriously saying that it’s ok to commit war crimes under the basis of speculation? That truly is disgusting.

@Polka83 i saw Alot of street interviews of israelis talking about the war and it does look like they cant hear themselves talking is like they do not acknowledge they are talking about humans
Example below

www.instagram.com/reel/DB48yeEJI9P/?igsh=aGV5azBlYTF2aGg4

Is truly astonishing

Here is a review article about a book on role of denial in how Israel acts towards Palestinians. It’s written by a left wing Israeli historian.

« In his book, “States of Denial: Knowing about Atrocities and Suffering,” sociologist Stanley Cohen discussed the “special case” of Israel. He was pondering the readiness of many Israelis to take in official propaganda, mythology and self-justification – disseminated and maintained by establishment antennae – through no physical enforcement (unlike other regimes, where repression is done with the help of truncheons and automatic firearms). In Israel you don’t throw dissidents into a damp dungeon, researchers are not tossed into trenches to die, there is no secret police to bring the full might of the law against citizens in the dark of the night.
“Many topics are known and not-known at the same time. Israel is a country full of ‘open secrets,'” writes Cohen. Indubitably, the facts regarding what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians for years have been largely available to the Israeli public: violence and killing, administrative detentions, robbery of property and banishment from lands, daily attacks by settlers and the Israeli military, systematic violations of international law, torture and more. To be precise, they are “available” to those who wish to know. »

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/knowing-and-not-knowing-how-israelis-live-in-denial/

I think we are just supposed to pretend that those things didn't happen, that seems to be the way it goes. It does beg the question though why did Israel go full on dreaming up a detailed animation if they had actual proof that Hamas were operating from the bunker that Israel built?