Hamas and Gaza celebrates

Yes @Dulra. Easy to judge when it's not you or your family at gunpoint, or you being estranged from society and work opportunities (as can happen to conscientious objectors.) I think international law does take into account extreme duress.

It all depends on duress and intimidation

I don't agree that israelis are complicit in what their government does but I also don't accept that a relative or "average" Isreali is complicit because of what they saw an armed dangerous terrorist do. I also would not expect then to let the IDF know because again I doubt their safety could be guaranteed. I'm just making the point that it is complicated but the tone of your post and others is that Palestinians who may have witnessed something are guilty.

Im out if this is the depths to which we have sunk.
I feel that about many posts on these threads.

Exactly. Its gaza law that is the issue though. I wonder what gaza law says about assault, rape, murder, hostage taking and imprisonment. It would be very interesting to know exactly what is being defended here.

Pretty sure that seeing a crime on the news doesn't make you an accessory or accomplice.

Helping the crime take place (eg hiding a hostage in your house) makes you an accomplice.

Hiding the crime after it happened (eg not informing Israel of a hostage location when you know it, or hiding a murderer's identity) makes you an accessory.

That's in UK law. I don't know about Israeli law, but suspect there are similar concepts.

Are we really in the realms of arguing that if I knew my brother had kidnapped, assaulted & raped an Israeli woman and kept her in his house that I have no moral or legal obligation to do something about it.

Im out if this is the depths to which we have sunk.

Nobody said that a relative of a hostage taker was guilty of being a hostage taker. But you would be guilty of knowing your relative had committed a range of heinous, and ongoing, crimes and doing nothing about it.

So by this logic are average israelis guilty of knowing that Netanyahu and his government are guilty of war crimes but doing nothing about it or is it slightly more complicated than that.

Nobody said that a relative of a hostage taker was guilty of being a hostage taker. But you would be guilty of knowing your relative had committed a range of heinous, and ongoing, crimes and doing nothing about it. An only you are creating a logical line that results in killing any Palestinian. That would not stand up under international law.

@polka83 said am not sure how many average Palestinians were involved in keeping hostages in Gaza (very few given their population) - but I imagine they would have readily given them back to their families if their own loved ones lives could be saved by a ceasefire.

So I guess the question is, if a "reasonably educated, intelligent but nondescript Palestinian person, not a Hamas fighter" knew about a hostage being held, what percentage of them remained silent and complicit? What percentage found a way to get information of their whereabouts to someone who would rescue them?

We know that many hostages were held in Palestinian homes - with spouses and relatives as well as the fighters themselves - and presumably neighbours were aware too (they were often in appartment blocks, so hard to hide from many people)

I don't actually know how many Palestinians passed information back to Israel about the hostages location. Does anyone here know whether/how much that happened?

I remember a hostage rescue from an appartment, where the soldiers approached in disguise. So presumably they judged it likely that at least some of the 'average' Palestinians standing around would not only not support them in rescuing the hostages, but would actively try to prevent it.

It is astonishing to read that some posters believe that if your relative/friend took part in 07/10 then you must be guilty by association of the same crimes.
If you follow that reasoning, then the slaughter of Palestinians is justifiable.
Both Hamas and the IDF have videoed themselves committing war crimes. Both are beyond contempt.
Let's not forget that Netanyahu has rejected an investigation into 07/10. Is it because his government ignored the repeated warnings about an attack? Is it because the IDF took 6 hours to respond. leaving Hamas to murder? Is it because the Hannibal directive was implemented?
So many questions.

'Ordinary' and 'Average' are well-used in English when talking about people.

Both are used in the Merriam Webster definition of 'The man on the Clapham Omnibus'

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/the%20man%20on%20the%20Clapham%20omnibus

It's a concept still used in English law, to decide whether a party has acted as a reasonable person would – for example, in a civil action for negligence. According to Wikipedia, "the character is a reasonably educated, intelligent but nondescript person, against whom the defendant's conduct can be measured."

For Palestinians, 'not a Hamas fighter' would probably be added.

I think the fact that the message 'There are no innocents in Gaza' has been strongly pushed to try and justify mass killings and dehumanise a population makes people sensitive to non evidenced statements about how many people were involved in Oct 7.

Ask @Polka83. She introduced the idea of the 'average law abiding Palestinian (which I hope you can acknowledge most of them will be) '

In english 'average' is quite a well used and understood word though.

You accused me of beimg prejudiced and saying something inflammatory. I was actually questioning a statement of yours which I thought had no basis in reality. You accused me of sweeping statements that had no basis.

so, let me get this straight - you have seen no evidence that 1000s of Hamas were likely involved in the 7 October attack, even though 1500 Israelis & others were killed or taken hostage and many more injured plus buildings, cars destroyed in a large scale attack which involved taking hostages and bodies back into gaza. Yet plenty of footage exists.

You have no evidence that the people involved have friends and relatives, though its impossible for this not to be true

You have seen no evidence that they filmed & circulated what they did with glee. And, by the way, I have a relative in counter terrorism and there is much more footage than has been made available because it is too horrific.

You dont think its a sound assumption that if I have seen footage then an 'Average' Palestinian must have too.

OK.

As for

Of course you are not compelled to justify how Israel treats Palestinians but by not doing so, please understand that others will make assumptions as to why you are not / unable to.

What you asked me to comment on was the WB:

No comments on what is reasonable expectations of the state of Israel towards Palestinians in the WB?

We were talking about Gaza. Its ridiculous to make assumptions about what I think on the basis that Im not prepared to change the subject. Why do I have to talk about whatever you want to talk about?

What is an "average" Palestinian, strange word to use to describe people

Sorry - not seen any evidence for your sweeping statements.

Of course you are not compelled to justify how Israel treats Palestinians but by not doing so, please understand that others will make assumptions as to why you are not / unable to.

Good grief, they were pretty simple and very well evidenced statements - its all out there. Im certainly not bothering to analyse your made up data (who said most Palestinians were involved in housing the hostages??) nor am I going to be compelled to make statements on whatever you want me to talk about.

I fear some on here are not aware of the extent of their own prejudices. It’s astounding.

Please can I have evidence for your statements - @SharonEllis and @LinnettdeBelleforte as they are pretty inflammatory.

There was an adult population of approximately 1 million. There were 251 hostages. A ratio of 4000 to 1. So if the hostages were kept in homes individually - which there is some evidence they were not, and a very generous estimate of 4 adults per house hold- each hostage would have to kept in 1000 different households. Given length of war - each hostage would have to be moved over 2 times each day. I highly doubt most Palestinians were involved in housing the hostages.

Have you also seen how much of Gaza has been flattened and how many Palestinians have lost their homes and were constantly driven from one area to another?! Do you think they carried hostages on their carts in full view and then housed them in their tents?

No comments on what is reasonable expectations of the state of Israel towards Palestinians in the WB?

@statsfun
That sounds entirely reasonable expectation from both Palestinians and Israelis. I am not sure how many average Palestinians were involved in keeping hostages in Gaza (very few given their population) - but I imagine they would have readily given them back to their families if their own loved ones lives could be saved by a ceasefire.

I would expect Israel not to have laws or enforce laws that differentially treat Palestinians and Israelis, and for the maltreatment of Palestinian prisoners to be stopped. Can you imagine an Israeli child being killed by an Israeli sniper or being sent to prison for throwing a stone (and then to also not have access to a trial)

Both Palestinians and Israelis should support / elect parties that constructively engage in the 2SS

I personally don't have any particularly strong feelings either way about videos of consenting adults with capacity who know they are being filmed being shared.

The poster I was addressing in my posts had what appeared to be very strong issues with the initial video that was shared, she berated the poster for sharing it and accused her of deliberately trying to publicly shame Israeli women.

Perhaps you should ask her why there is a problem with sharing the opinions of consenting Israelis but not of Palestinians, I don't understand it either and she doesn't seem eager to share it with me.

@noisybear why didn’t you watch the videos? They're just clips of people - who know they're on camera - giving their opinion.

I've seen other similar (less stupidly branded) video projects with very similar opinions given by Palestinians from before Oct 7th. I've never seen anything to make me doubt that that those opinions are widespread.

Both videos are useful, whilst taking them for what they are - a snapshot- and recognising that not everyone of either nationality will share those opinions.

There's no point in outsiders trying to craft a solution which they like, whilst ignoring the reality of what the people living there think, and how they will continue to behave. You might almost say that's a rather colonial approach.

@polka83 - I'd say that the basic expectation and responsibility of law abiding Palestinian citizens would be to refrain from violence themselves, not hide hostages, and support the removal of terrorists.

And given the amount of international effort and money going into trying to create a 2SS, I'd also expect them to support trying to achieve that - otherwise we may as well all stop bothering.

@GentleScroller
Are you referring to all Palestinians? That’s a sweeping generalisation. You don’t think there may have been an element of confirmation bias in the creation of the video? The snippets also don’t give context to the discussion.

The title of the video is called the Wild West Bank. Not sure the comments of these Palestinians is the wildest thing that actually happens in the West Bank. You can see lots of articles of violence settlers are committing in the West Bank in most major news outlets. Do you think we should generalise their behaviour to all of Israelis? Of course not.

Please can I ask, from the average law abiding Palestinian (which I hope you can acknowledge most of them will be) - what is their basic expectation and responsibility that they are not undertaking?