Hamas and Gaza celebrates

Apologies, @Whatsinanamehey . It was @spunkycritic

It's horrific! Do you think Israel should accept Palestinian demands to withdraw to the pre 1967 borders in order to proceed with a two state solution? What concessions need to be made by both sides?

@stomachamelon The rocket launches began in 2001.
The restrictions on trade and movement in Gaza by Israel began in the 1990's.

There's a bit of a chicken and egg situation here.

Soldiers blowing up universities just for likes on social media. Fucking sick.

And the IDF standard response is 'we will look into it' as they have been saying everytime they get called out on a war crime.

I don't recall all the hospitals and universities and schools being built by Israel.
I do know they repeatedly bombed them even needlessly when they didn't need to. Have we forgotten the huge controlled explosion of one of the Gaza universities that the IDF admitted was done for no reason.

@Martymcfly24 you could say the same about Israel. Do you live under daily rocket fire when you're trying to live your life?

@Whatsinanamehey who left the essential infrastructure when they withdrew and then who destroyed it and misused it?

There will never be a two state solution while Netanyahu is in charge either so lets not lay the blame at one door here.

It wasn't Hamas that has turned most of Gaza into rubble and destroyed almost all essential infrastructure. Does Hamas have blame in it? Yes. That doesn't absolve Israel of their crimes.
Google maps have updated some of their images of Gaza and some areas look like there has been an apocalypse. It's shocking what has been allowed to happen.

@statsfun if you lived in a country where day to day living was made much more difficult by another country . Where every piece of business you did was hampered by them even down to a restricting on faster internet. Where you had to pay for the demolition of your own house for a settler to take it. Where water and imports were controlled by this county and where you had seen neighbors be the victims of violence and children murdered for throwing stones.
Where the police will never support you.

Would you roll over and take it?

Israel has made destroyed more Palestinian lives. That is a fact.

Golden407, did you read the article you posted? Their so-called acceptance of a two state solution would be ‘temporary’ and does not include them stopping fighting against Israel. That’s not a two state solution.

Realistically, there will not be a two state solution while Hamas is in control of Gaza.

I agree with @whatsinanamehey that Hamas have destroyed more Palestinian lives than any Israeli ever could.

I don't recall writing this.

Israel's security choices were also not made in a vacuum.

Frankly, who cares whether Hamas would accept a 2SS. Their actions on October 7th have made that impossible.

Their celebrations disgust me. How can they celebrate the ceasefire as a victory? The war they started has made things worse for everyone: but most especially for Palestinians.

I agree with @Whatsinanamehey that Hamas have destroyed more Palestinian lives than any Israeli ever could. No single Israeli could ever have destroyed Gaza as comprehensively - or put a 2SS as far out of reach - as Hamas have through their actions.

So what now for the Palestinians?

Absolutely agree with you here. At the end of the day Hamas were not created in a vacuum.

Especially when you examine the list I posted above and see the ways the Israel has made everyday life so much more difficult for Palestinians you can see how a resistance group was created. If the same impositions were made on the liberties of people in my country I can imagine there would pushback also. That is not even to mention the violence, murders and imprisonment without trial by the IDF before October 7th

Goes without saying I fully condemn their methods and October 7th.

Really? That's not what I've read? Hamas has always been open to a two state solution. It doesn't correlate with Israels political goals.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-war-f756cc054732eb3f7e0c49a9987560a0
Whilst accepting the two state solution Hamas have always maintained they won't acknowledge Israels legitimacy as a state whilst it maintains a system of apartheid prioritising the rights of one group of citizens over another. Also they want Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders as a prerequisite to the two state solution. Something Israel will never accept.
This is often misrepresented in the western media as hamas reflecting the two state solution

Really? That's not what I've read? Hamas has always been open to a two state solution. It doesn't correlate with Israels political goals.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-war-f756cc054732eb3f7e0c49a9987560a0

Whilst accepting the two state solution Hamas have always maintained they won't acknowledge Israels legitimacy as a state whilst it maintains a system of apartheid prioritising the rights of one group of citizens over another. Also they want Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders as a prerequisite to the two state solution. Something Israel will never accept.
This is often misrepresented in the western media as hamas reflecting the two state solution

@Golden407

There's nothing unusual about what the Palestinians are doing. Hamas are just the face of it.

That's an interesting take on it and hardly fits in with the normal narrative on here.

Israel has also offered numerous times (five) and it's been rejected. By the 'face' of the Palestinians.

Without defending Hamas I think it's important to recognise that what they're doing isn't unusual given the circumstances. If you invade, occupy and systematically oppress a population of people then those people will resist and that resistance will manifest itself violently. There's nothing unusual about what the Palestinians are doing. Hamas are just the face of it.
Only Israel has the power to try and change the status quo, starting with the two state solution. Unfortunately that doesn't appear to be on the table.

All media has a bias, we just like to think the ones that agree with our views don't.

@ExitPersuedByAMemory something that isn't bias?

Which facts aren't true so?

While we can debate the source's "hostility" facts are facts and just because you don't like where they came from does not mean they can be dismissed.

Perhaps the reason it is seen as hostile is that the facts are unpleasant to those who feel that Israel is never the aggressor , only the victim.

@Oodiks So what are you suggesting people read instead? I’m confused in what way are they hostile to the Israeli government?

Well, they would say that wouldn't they? Al Jazeera is notably hostile to Israel so they're hardly going to be unbiased.

https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/israel-occupation-illustrated-guide/

Hamas might have been the government but they didn't exactly have autonomy over everything in running the country.

Hamas are the government in Gaza, they could've put their resources into infrastructure and job creation, instead they focused on destroying 'the Zionist Entity.' Relations between the people in Gaza and the surrounding areas were tense, to say the least, but Israelis near the border were working towards peace and employed Palestinians to work for them. The October 7th attacks were planned with information Hamas got from those workers, destroying any trust, and starting this destructive phase of the ongoing conflict.