Hamas and Gaza celebrates

Not accept your fate. Stop committing terrorist atrocities.

The fact you object to that is disturbing.

Yes it is.

What sort of thinking is that. Israel can do more damage than you can so just accept your fate.

@statsfun what you have written is absolutely disturbing ! Palestinian's should give up and accept their fate since they cannot "win"
The have to be the "perfect" victims if they dare to demand more they are savage animals

Do you believe in a two state solution?

Yes I do.

For this to happen, Hamas has to go. As a group but more difficulty as an idealogy. Attacks on Israel must never happen again.What I would fear would happen would be akin to Ireland after the War of Independence when a bloody civil war with long lasting consequences was fought due to the terms of the Treaty that meant the six counties were retained by Britain. I would draw parallels with this as whatever Treaty Israel and Palestine agree to will not satisfy all and therefore violence could continue.

Anyway I digress, to rid Palestine of Hamas will mean international cooperation and support (preferably without the US for the next 4 years)whoever comes to power will have to be moderate but strong enough to lead a country that will have deep scars.

Israel on their part need to withdraw and allow Palestinian borders to be drawn. They need to allow free movement between Gaza and the West Bank and not occupy the areas in any way.
They will also need strong moderate governance to support a scarred population that will always fear the next attack for generations.

I really don't know, holding hands and singing kumbyeyah doesn't look like likey in the future but if it has happened in Northern Ireland long long long term hopefully it could happen too.

What actions should they take?

Whether Israelis are colonists depends on how you define it, and I don't want to discuss that or who are the indigenous people and past actions on both sides.

Could you let me know if you believe in a two-state solution? If yes, what concessions should both sides make for a two-state solution?

And I had told you what I meant by that already.

Nothing to do with 'sins'. Everything to do with consequence of actions.

'Role' implies partial responsibility. "Not accepting the role parents and grandparents played" means that the Palestinians blame Israel entirely.

Which they do.

It would be better if they - and the Westerners who keep encouraging them to fight with an armchair-combatant's ill-informed narrative of good vs evil - could finally recognised that their historic actions- as well as Israel's - fed into their current situation... and if they want things to change then they need to choose different actions. Otherwise things will just continue to get worse for Palestinians.

But I won't hold my breath.

I probably wouldn't accept the role my grandparents and parents had played in my shitty situation

I was responding to this in your previous post which I interpreted as past generations of Palestinians were to blame for their current situation.. (Ie forefathers)

No need for the passive aggressive emoji.

Or when the British media reported that the Irish brought the famine on themselves.

Colonialists like to absolve themselves of any blame.

You're the only one talking about sins of forefathers

I think @sharonellis is right that there's no point in attempting a conversation when you deliberately misinterpret and create strawmen.

You asked what I would do. I told you.

As always, my pragmatic viewpoint is that all Palestinians should stop attacking Israel. Now. Not because of rights and wrongs, but because it's the only way things will get better for them - or at least stop getting worse.

Hamas are completely screwing Palestinians over, and celebrating that is disgusting of Hamas and short-sighted of Palestinians.

Funny you should mention Einstein, did you read about his views about the Deir Yassin massacre when up to 110 Palestinians were murdered and raped and mutilated by Zionist paramilitaries.

So if we are to mention the sins of our forefathers we should probably look at the two sides.

Since when did 'make a deal' = 'put up & shut up'.

Its impossible to have a conversation when anything people say is deliberately & gratuitously misinterpreted.

Choose actions which will give you a future.

As for what past generations did? More of the same. A civil war pre-1948. Then continuously attacking Israel. Not accepting the Camp David agreement.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Alfred Einstein

Put up and shut up so.

Right.

And absolve the bully of all blame.

Some just choose to ignore the constant threats of ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their homeland by Israel. This is barbaric behaviour.

Billboards with the faces of Jewish settler terrorists who were all released have been put up all over the west bank

"On the other side of one of the billboards, a message in Arabic reads, “There is no future in Palestine” alongside a picture of displaced Palestinians fleeing their homes in Gaza."

🤮

Nope.

If you can't win, don't start a fight that will make your own life worse.

Make a deal which actually gives you a future.

@statsfun
You didn't need to write all that to summarize:
It's all the Palestinians own fault because of what past generations did (what was that?)
Do what Israel says and take any deal or else it's again your own fault. Life might be shit but it could be shitter.

Oh and if you don't have the "logic and insight" to accept the shitness anything that happens.. guess what.. it's your own fault.

@spunkycritic need to look harder then.

I'm not sure what your sources are, but the general consensus is that about half the greenhouses were demolished by settlers, many of them unhappy that their compensation for leaving Gaza was too small.
Of those greenhouses that remained, some were looted, but by October the greenhouses were up and running.
However border restrictions limited the number of trucks leaving Gaza and so produce had to be dumped by the roadside.

If I was Israeli and lived in a militarily and economically strong democracy, I would not support a government which proposed giving up a bad but manageable situation and returning to '67 borders (20km or so from the principle cities) - handing over autonomy and security control to a people who had committed October 7th atrocities and vowed to repeat them, had proved that they wished to slaughter my family, and contined to fire rockets into my country. I wouldn't really care if that was unfair, I just wouldn't do it.

No pressure from any country in the world would make me accept it. And that's even without the generational trauma of knowing that other countries had previously stood by whilst 1/3 of my people worldwide - 2/3 of those in Europe - were industrially slaughtered, just 80 years ago, by people with a similar all-encompassing hate towards me. But even without that history, I wouldn't accept it. If my country had military strength, then I wouldn't accept the risk.

If I was Palestinian and lived in on oppressive regime - oppressed both by strongman leaders and by a neighbouring country - that would undoubtedly be a horrific way to live. I can recognise that I probably wouldn't accept the role my grandparents and parents had played in my shitty situation. I'd probably really hate the foreign neighbours and have mixed feelings about the strongman leaders. But I hope I would have the logic and insight to realise that provoking a stronger enemy by repeatedly attacking them wasn't making my own situation any better.

So I'm pretty certain that I wouldn't commit or support those attacks. If I had any political influence at all, I'd try to be pragmatic and find the best deal which was realistically possible - accepting that a not-great deal and a future was better than a flattened homeland and ongoing wars which my people could never win, and made our living situation worse and worse.

Agree with all, apart from you miscrediting whasinanamehey saying something bad thing about Hamas. That hasn't happened so far in this thread.

Who benefits most from Palestinian deaths?

Hamas, of course.