Hamas and Gaza celebrates

Spunkycritic, why do people need to know the complete history to know that shooting children in the head is evil?

I am fairly new to MN, but have been catching up on this boards.
The lack of ME knowledge is shocking.

Gaza has received billions and billions of money in aid (including from Israel).
The PLO was formed to rid the world of Jews when Jordan was in control. Their whole being is about Anti-semitism.
It's not just Hamas in Gaza. There are about 30-40 other similar smaller groups there claiming they are the justified rulers. All hate Jews.

Whilst the Israelis were agreeable to a 2 state solution, the Palestinians rejected it time and time again. Is it any wonder the Israelis now have reservations? Palestinian leaders (and other Palestinians on X) are still saying they are looking forward to destroying Israel.

How many contributors know why Egypt and Jordan didn't open the floodgates and let refugees in?
If I said Black September to anyone I guarantee 99% would look at me blankly.

Yes, support the innocent people killed on both sides, but to chant "free Palestine", claim genocide and Israel are evil without knowing the history and exactly what you are talking about is completely moronic.

Imagine criticising people who are celebrating the end of the war after they have been indiscriminately carpet bombed for months. Crazy.

The Palestinians chose terrorism in the early 60s before Israel was in the West Bank and Gaza.

1. In the West Bank, At Tarik Af Thalif (The Third Way) is a tiny but somewhat active polical party who advocate for democratic values and non-violent resistance. They have / had allies in Gaza. But, since Hamas abducted, tortured and hanged or beheaded more than 20 of their leaders in Gaza in 2014, they tend to keep a pretty low profile. Social media suggests there are still people in Gaza who oppose Hamas, but I doubt they’re especially organised or ready to lead right now.
2. In the West Bank, the major political force is Fatah. They are generally accepted to be corrupt and undemocratic. They are part of the Conquest Alliance with non-state allies in the PMF all over the Middle East and lots of state allies. In Gaza, Hamas is the major political force. Their most valuable ally is Iran.
3. I assume you misunderstood what I said there. I was explaining why Israel can’t “meet them halfway” to make peace. Palestinian “liberation” calls for peace without Israel. For Israel to “meet them halfway” they’d have to half destroy themselves. Obviously that’s absurd.

Do you have proof of this accusation?

What's wrong with celebrations of a pogrom!? Are you for real? The poster wasn't talking about the ceasefire, they were talking about 10/07.

You are surprised that people are celebrating not having bombs drop on their heads every hour ? How delusional are u really ? Put yourselves in their shoes wouldn't you be celebrating too ? What will continuing this madness achieve ?

There are peaceful people in Palestine, but they’re a small political minority
Who are you referring to here?

The powerful majority with the might of the state machinery and the international allies are religious fundamentalists who openly admit that their end goal is genocide.
Who are the powerful majority with the might of the state machinery and international allies?

so meeting them halfway means killing half the Israelis.
Gazans or Hamas? have the capability to kill half of the Israelis? They seem to have been hiding that power this past 15 months

As Blinken said, the Israelis cannot carry on treating the Palestinians as non-people and think there will be any sort of resolution.

I honestly don't know what the answer is. I literally just opened up X to see footage of a stabbing attack in Tel Aviv, carried out by an attacker from the West Bank.

I just don't know where anyone goes from here.

You have not yet said what you think could lead to a stable peace in future. Are you dodging that question for a reason?

I think I have fairly thoroughly explained why giving Palestine less oversight and more military equipment etc will almost inevitably lead to a war against Israel until it is destroyed. The current political elite (and general societal norms) openly admits that they prioritise killing Jews and destroying Israel over literally everything else. Without radically changing that mindset, Palestinian sovereignty is an existential threat to Israel. How do you imagine that could / should be changed? Or do you think Israelis should simply accept that their neighbours are allowed to be genocidal and wait politely for their turn to be gunned down at a festival / commit suicide to save them the bother?

Your post was deleted so I can't quote you but I do believe that my post was an accurate summary of what you said. I will reiterate we are on very different planes, we will never agree, this is pointless, I'm going to go enjoy my evening, I hope you do too.

I missed the edit.
I can assure you I’m not Islamophobic. I have travelled extensively in the West Bank, I worked in Rawabi for a couple of months and in Qualquilya for 6 weeks. I speak passable Arabic, although I learned in Morocco and it’s very different to the Arabic of the West Bank. I have been immersed in Palestinian culture for an extended period of time and I am still in contact with some of my old colleagues and acquaintances. Quite simply, I KNOW how racist it is there. I’ve seen the banners of terrorists commemorated in every village square for their wonderful murders of any random Jews they could reach, the statues of Sadam Hussein on roundabouts and the posters celebrating 9/11. The hatred of Jews is part of the culture and has been for hundreds of years. It will take intensive outside input and a lot of time to fix that.
In the mean time, it is not reasonable to ask Israelis to gambol their lives and the lives of their children on the minuscule chance that the liberals can claim and hold power in an independent Palestine with weapons and an army. A Palestinian army formed tomorrow will fight to the death to destroy Israel and I don’t think there is a power in Palestine or outside it which could prevent that.
Edited because I would fail a SPAG test!

The whole thing is scary. Israel is having to release some incredibly violent and dangerous terrorists to have the hostages freed. And the latest celebrations show hamasniks have learned nothing.

I just hope as many hostages as possible are still alive. My heart breaks for the Bibas family and the female observers who appear to have been brutally raped in particular.

It’s not at all that “some people don’t deserve rights” and that’s not what I said. Nor is Israel above international law.
Let’s scale this down to individuals to make it easier to understand. You do not have to actually murder someone to be guilty of a crime. The police can and do act before the crime takes place, when the would-be-murderer is eg planning the route, hiring the chainsaw or practising disposing of a corpse. That is already a crime and grounds for arrest.
On a larger scale, Palestinian elected (or not) representative and their allies have consistently said they are planning a genocide. They want to kill all the Jews and replace the Jewish state with another Arab state. They try every chance they get. They may not have achieved it yet, but that does not mean they haven’t done anything wrong. Just like hiring a chainsaw as a would-be murderer is already enough reason for the police to intervene, planning, resourcing and training for an act of war is also grounds for defensive action. It’s not reasonable to expect the Israelis to sit on their hands and wait for Palestine and co to achieve their genocidal goals. By then it’s too late so have to take action before.

What do you want to happen? How do you imagine giving greater sovereignty to a genocidal terrorist organisation will end? There is a tiny chance that the Palestinian political minority could wrestle power from the political elite and accept independence for peace. Far more likely, the terrorists behead them, stay in power and use their new found wealth, connections and weapons to wage war until they win.

Correct. The conflict started a long time ago.

I applaud you for at least being open about the fact that you don't feel like some people are entitled to basic human rights and that you feel they need to earn basic protections. And for being open about the fact that you don't feel International laws should apply to Israel. We are on very different planes clearly and won't ever agree on this. There is nothing else to say really is there.

Until such a time, people planning murder should expect to be treated like attempted murderers.

I do think that you need to ask yourself if racism or perhaps Islamaphobia is clouding your view because you seem to think that all Palestinians are planning murder and that is why you are OK with all Palestinians not having basic protections.

Are you not 'blaming the victims' by pretty much saying Israel has no choice but to remove basic human rights from Palestinians? You talk about consequences to actions but refuse to see that Israels actions also have consequences.

Some Palestinians have behaved badly. Some Israelis have behaved badly. If everybody keeps behaving badly then nothing changes. Israel thought that by locking people in Gaza, by keep people under aparheid and occupation they were keeping Israel safe. Oct 7 proved that that is not the case. The inhumane measures Israel have had in place don't keep Palestinians safe and they don't keep Israelis safe. They do nothing but increase hatred and suffering all around.

If nothing changes nothing changes. Israel and the OPT are the perfect example of this.

Yes I can see that now but as the thread was about ceasefire celebrations conflating the two confused me

I wrote "There were no shouts of yay, we are free. It was celebrations, including phone calls bragging, of killing Jews" in response to the post by @inamarina@inamarina
saying similar.
Pretty clear to me.

I've also seen a tweet from a Palestinian journalists that's doing the rounds on X. She doesn't personally sound intent on adhering to a ceasefire. But I appreciate she doesn't speak for all Gazans.

https://x.com/BayanPalestine/status/1879586510745539009