Hamas and Gaza celebrates

They absolutely did.
@mollyfolk thank you and spot on. Some of the things said were shocking to say the least.

There's nothing I read in those posts that precludes the existence of a Palestinian state. I don't understand your post at all. Of course its hard to go back snd see because the posts have been deleted.

Couldn't have said it better myself 👏

I’m celebrating the ceasefire, we are all winners for choosing to stop killing each other. I don’t care how war mongers choose to justify putting down their weapons or stopping their killing machines in their twisted ways- so long as they stick to peace.

I am hoping it holds. No more death. Too many have died and for nothing.
I am looking forward to some happiness being snatched for the families of the hostages and detainees.
I am looking forward to rebuilding and no more babies or children dying of starvation or cold.
I am looking forward to wounded civilians getting the medical care they need/urgent evacuations.

I have no idea where the viable path comes from. I’m also not an expert. And whatever happens it will be a long, long way to Peace. The US are suggesting the PA with the involvement of outside states.

This is not the same as what the poster suggested. Because they aren’t suggesting a Palestinian state at all. They seem to think that the only way to a Palestinian state involves the end of israel. They are thinking solely about what will give Israelis safety and security. Peace will never be the result of that type of thinking. It just doesn’t work like that.

Why aren't you? It's no secret. In a way it's refreshingly honest.

I don't know what to say. I don't feel comfortable encouraging hate speech. If that poster could engage respectfully without using hateful rhetoric you may have a point but it isn't a singular post that they have had deleted tonight, it's multiple. I have no reason to believe that if I engage with them in good faith it will any different.

“They say that they will do whatever is necessary to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. Their actions so far have consistently confirmed that they will live up to their words whenever they have the opportunity to.”

@ChangeyerNameyer

I agree actions speak louder than words, however when examining who has been killing whom, the body count both absolutely and proportionally show that Israel’s military is leagues ahead of any Palestinian terror group in mass murder of children, women, and civilian men. Let’s just look at children, who I think we can all agree are 100% innocent in all this no matter what religion they are.

The current estimate is that during this conflict, around 18,000 Palestinian children have been killed by the IDF compared to 14 Israeli children by Hamas over the past 15 months of war.

This is a 1:1,285 ratio. For every Israeli child killed, 1,285 Palestinian children have been killed In absolute numbers.

Now let’s consider proportionally compared to the total number of children using the same method by which Oct 7th was estimated to have as much of an impact on Israel as 9/11 had on the US - by comparing population sizes.

There were 1.1 million Palestinian children compared to 3.4 million Israeli children at the start of the conflict. For Hamas to have had the same impact on Israel that IDF had on Palestine, Hamas would have had to kill 55,620 children over the past 15 months.

You write a lot about the threats from Hamas, and express worry as to what actions they might do, and it is entirely reasonable for Israel to defend itself and hate Hamas. I suppose it’s also fair to say that if Hamas could, they would kill thousands of Israeli children.

But given who has killed whom, looking at the actions that have happened, can you agree that the Palestinians who are caught in the middle of this and the ones whose children are being slaughtered in exponentially greater numbers also have cause to fear Israel and hate the IDF?

If Hamas words and actions are enough to justify the fear of a Palestinian state, then how are the actions of IDF not enough to also justify fear of the Israeli state as it is currently run/governed and acting?

Everyone who genuinely cares about the Palestinians

And whose that in your opinion?

The lack of knowledge and deep felt historical prejudice regarding the creation of Israel has found a forum on MN.

So you're accusing posters on mumsnet of a deep felt historical prejudice regarding the creation of Israel? And @LetThereBeLove you're in agreement?

It's a fair question from @ChangeyerNameyer.

I'm disappointed with your reply as understanding all perspectives is important.

So where does thst viable pathway come from? It cant be Hamas. Its unlikely to work with the PA. People dont suddenly learn how to magically become a functioning democracy. This is well known. Everyone who genuinely cares about the Palestinians has been discussing the involvement of states and individuals from outside in that process @ChangeyerNameyer was making perfectly sensible suggestions.

@ChangeyerNameyer

I am not an expert, but my guess is that the best chance of peace would be through systematic deradicalisation of the Palestinian population led by a coalition of other Muslim nations

No you're not an expert. It's baffling that you think that the path towards peace will involve the Palestinian people accepting bring a non people in a non existent country with it's borders militarily controlled by Israel. somehow being deradicalied by a mythical coalition of countries who persuade them to be happy with their lot so that Israelis can live happily ever after.

Palestinians need to be offered a viable political pathway to their own state. It's not me saying that it's the conclusion of most of the international community.

You've summed up exactly what's happened. The lack of knowledge and deep felt historical prejudice regarding the creation of Israel has found a forum on MN. I believe many want the state of Israel dissolved and Israeli Jews asimmilaated into a new state of Palestine as per their chant 'from the river to the sea'. That's their preferred path to peace. Giving sovereignty to a terrorist organisation doesn't even enter their conscience.

Such as?

If you think there’s anything inaccurate in what I said, please do elaborate. I’m happy to provide evidence on any or all points you dislike.

Astonishing how many lies, misinformation and contradictions can be crammed into one post.

Before Israel, Palestine and Jordan were formed, there was British Transjordan. There had never been a sovereign Palestinian state to “steal”. The existence of Israel is no more a theft of Palestinian land than the existence of Jordan is! None of them was a sovereign nation. Jordan actually claimed the West Bank for themselves for quite a long time.

Jewish Palestinians would be murdered and you’d have to be really very ill informed to doubt that. Jewish minorities in Arab countries were not historically given equal rights. They experienced a lot of racism and pogroms. We think of it as having been “better” than Jews experienced in Christian nations just because the Christian nations set the bar so low. Since then, the Palestinian political elite has generally been pro murdering all the Jews and they have attempted to at every chance they got. It would be rather silly to assume they’d somehow change their minds if they had the power to actually achieve their goal. When jihadis gain sovereignty, it’s always bad for all of the minorities who can’t escape. Look at how minorities did under ISIS. Hamas are allied with ISIS. It’s reasonable to assume something similar would happen to the Jews as happened to the Yazidis. There has never been this golden age of peaceful coexistence. The Arab nations tolerated Jews as long as they were second class citizens with fewer rights. In different areas and eras this varied, but it included limitations on where they could live, prohibitions on owning land, limits on jobs they could take and eg who Jewish doctors could treat, limits on religious freedoms, additional taxes etc etc. There was also violent antisemitism.
Even if there were a tiny chance that might not happen, you do not have the right to ask Jews to risk a genocide because you’re optimistic that the Jihadis were actually lying and are nice people underneath.

@SharonEllis You seem to be very well-versed with Israeli actions, what are your thoughts on Bibi Netanyahu prolonging an unjust war to avoid elections?

From reading last year’s articles, it seems as though Daniel Hagari, the Israeli military spokesperson who infamously incorrectly pointing to a calendar claiming it's a Hamas guard roster in an army video, seemed to have a rift with Bibi and wanted to withdraw Israeli military from Gaza but Bibi is so obsessed with Hamas despite the billions of dollars Israel receives from America and it’s still not enough. And WCK were targeted despite their route being known, but somehow the Israeli government have to hide behind the notion of “human shields”?

I don’t really know how else to try to explain what I meant. It was an offhand comment to try to illustrate why Israel can’t compromise with Palestine for peace if Hamas are negotiating. Hamas has the fundamental demand that Israel must cease to exist and Israelis must be killed or exiled. Israel cannot possible concede on this. Obviously! If Hamas has “no more Israel” as a prerequisite for negotiating and Israel has “we still exist” as their prerequisite, then there’s no negotiating possible. The “meet them halfway” point was to illustrate how utterly impossible it is to negotiate with terrorists. You can’t “meet someone halfway” when that means half destroying yourself.

Its not hard to know if you are willing to try to understand
Always so patronising

It was perfectly clear to start with and they have explained again.
It was as clear as mud in my view.

They were referring to the concept of meeting 'half way' which is a basic negotiating concept.
What is half way though in these negotiations? It is a ceasefire deal not extensive peace negotiations that could potentially lead to an end to the Israeli occupation and a Palestinian state. Afaik phase 1 is only to last 6 weeks!

For example they unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005.

however, they kept restrictions about who can go in/out and many times refusing access to medical aid. As well as keeping restrictions about water and aid that can go into Gaza. It wasn’t a full withdrawal in 2005.

But a loud mouth politician from a small, radical political party saying something awful is not the same as the military acting on it or the elected representatives pouring all of their resources into it.

I can’t agree with this. These politicians you’re talking about are part of the government and are allowing settlers to expand in Palestine land and allowing the attacks Palestinians are going through by these settlers. So these politicians are part of the problem , same way Hamas is part of the problem.

these politicians as well as Hamas and settlers need to disappear for a successful 2 state solution