Last functioning hospital in Northern Gaza is stormed by the IDF

Exactly. A guerilla war is always horrific and protracted and we have seen tons of evidence of the tunnel network and how Hamas use it and as you say we knew about it before 7/10. We keep being told everything is destroyed. Israel is all powerful but somehow also remarkably inefficient and incompetent while also having magical powers to keep destroying things that are already destroyed and despite destroying 'everything' the hostages cant be found. The criticism of Israel is so inconsistent and morphs into whatever people want Israel to be to support an argument at any given time. When you try to pin the facts or argument down to something meaningful the goalposts move and it can't discussed because by even wanting to look at facts or evidence you are revealing that you don't care about dying babies and 'genocide'. Its emotional manipulation and its not really about the victims at all. Im not suggesting that there is nothing to criticise Israel for but there's no point in a conversation with someone whose only setting is Israel is wrong about everything and is an evil genocidal machine.

There is loads of evidence of Hamas's tunnels, that there are tunnels under hospitals, that there are Hamas personnel in hospitals etc. No Im not going to spend my time digging it up and posting it because the people that need to see it wont look at it anyway and I've got other things to do. If you're saying there is no evidence then you are either so incurious you haven't looked, or you've seen it and don't want to believe it. Sensible people know how to do research & will do it anyway.

I think there is so little evidence of a command centre in any of the hospitals in Gaza that it's safe to say hospitals are being targeted as part of the genocidal effort in Gaza by Israel.

If that was the case then why would Israel instruct those in the hospital to leave? If it was truly genocidal would you not just leave them there?

@ScrollingLeaves much like the positions on here I believe there is a middle ground between 'precision attack' and 'pot luck' and I am surprised you think otherwise.

I would also think of two more reasons. First, land grab. As the population loses its social structures like hospitals, schools, residential buildings they will be forced to move out or give control to Israel, especially considering Palestinians don't have financial means to rebuild even if conditions would let them.

The other reason, during last Christmas break, there were groups of international doctors (and nurses) who went to volunteer in Gaza hospitals. These doctors were first hand witnesses on what was happening to civilian population, especially children. Without the hospitals, there are no places to volunteer anymore, and no more witnesses.

I think there is so little evidence of a command centre in any of the hospitals in Gaza that it's safe to say hospitals are being targeted as part of the genocidal effort in Gaza by Israel.

^It's not got an all seeing eye over Gaza
and if it did then the war would have been over very quickly with the hostages back and Hamas eradicated^

But whenever the IDF has bombed a school, hospital or tent camp and numerous civilians have been killed, the IDF itself responds by saying they have precision targeted a ‘command and control centre’.

So that is the IDF effectively claiming they know with their all seeing eye what they are targeting every time, not just taking pot-luck incase in the midst of all the civilians they might get some terrorists. Though given the war was not over long ago for lack of eradicating terrorists as you suggested, maybe the pot-luck version is more like it, with mostly civilians getting killed instead.

The IDF were so successful in knowing the whereabouts of and targeting various leaders in Lebanon that I started thinking maybe they did know where everyone was.

I do think Hamas fighters were stupid if they still thought hospitals were safe to use as meeting centres and weapons arsenals with many of them coming and going every day or night, in this case not even in an alleged underground complex.
(No doubt however there have been wounded Hamas fighters in the hospitals.)

I think it's a bit strange and yet it's seen a lot on here that Israel has eyes and ears on Gaza and is somewhat omnipotent.

Israel has an advanced military and surveillance capabilities but it is not omniscient. It's not got an all seeing eye over Gaza and if it did then the war would have been over very quickly with the hostages back and Hamas eradicated.

Israel is fighting a guerrilla way and that's why fighting has continued.

With regard to hospitals Hamas has said itself it uses hospitals. This is the most documented and there is footage, testimonials, reports etc. This is no new thing either.... this was in several media sources around the world pre Oct 7th.

I agree, if as video goes, Hamas and other terrorist factions were to-ing and fro-ing every day and night using hospitals as their primary supply depots for weapons and ammunition for the entire war, then how did all these militants transporting all this gear- literally tons of it- ghost past all the drone, plane and satellite surveillance covering Gaza 24/7 with night vision? We know there are no tunnels going directly into and out of the hospitals. There would be at least a shred of evidence. I know IDF has alleged they use the ambulances, but every ambulance they have struck/blown up has not had any militants in it.

I’m open to clear and convincing evidence. A spliced and diced interrogation by with physical evidence of torture isn’t that imho. Notice too how he always refers to Hamas as ‘they’ not ‘we’ - that could be a translation error in the subtitles but if it isn’t, that’s a subtle sign that he’s not a member of Hamas and has been fed a script by the interrogator.

It is very confusing to know what is and what is not true.
a. Are Hamas so stupid they really think they won’t be targeted in a hospital and so they use them as command and control centres?
or
b. Has he been coerced in some way to say this?

I was alerted in the video subtitles to his using the phrase ‘command and control centre’ which sounds suspiciously out of the IDF’s phrase book. On the other hand that could be an over generalised translation of a phrase which in his original language (Arabic) might not have been the same as the Hebrew/Hebrew to English version.

I listened to the news on radio 4 this evening and they mentioned these attacks from the Idf.

Usual IDF approach. We've seen it so many times before.

When they show actual evidence I'll pay attention. I've seen enough cases of people admitting to all sorts because they've been beaten not to pay any heed to this one.

Also, why on earth would Hamas think the IDF wouldn't attack a hospital? That makes no sense. They've attacked most, if not all hospitals. Hospitals are targets for the IDF so not a good choice for those trying to avoid getting bombed or shot.

And surely if it was a Hamas command centre there'd be a load of evidence. This is all so ridiculous.

Do we have to believe IDF?

He appears to have been tortured. Look at his hands. The accounts of torture (with video evidence of injuries of released detainees) say they avoid the face, and the baggy sweats they dress prisoners in hide the injuries and weight loss.

Testimony gained through torture is inadmissible because it’s understood people will agree to say whatever you want them to say.

The Times of Israel
(Headline)
“Hamas member tells IDF interrogators that gunmen operated in Kamal Adwan Hospitall”*
Operative says terrorists saw north Gaza hospital as 'safe shelter,' used it as armory; unclear whether statements were made under duress, and whether other detainees agree.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-member-tells-idf-interrogators-that-gunmen-operated-in-kamal-adwan-hospital/

This is the IDF’s link to their video of the Hamas militant captured at the Kamal Adwan hospital, Anas Muhammad Faiz Al-Sherif.

”This is just one testimony from the over 240 terrorists that were apprehended.”

https://x.com/IDF/status/1876574079991296054?mx=2

About the hospital.

Haaretz

• The IDF said that its Kfir Brigade has concluded its operations in northern Gaza after 64 days. The statement added that the 162nd Division continues its activities in the area, stating that there is no intention to allow residents to return to their homes in northern Gaza until Israel's political leadership decides on the matter.

• Israeli authorities released a video from the interrogation of Hamas militant Anas Muhammad Faiz al-Sherif, who was recently arrested at the Kamal Adwan Hospital in northern Gaza. In the video, Al-Sherif describes how militants used the hospital as a strategic base, assuming it would not be directly targeted by the Israeli military.

I am surprised Anas Muhammad Faiz Al-Sherif said militants used the hospital as a strategic base”assuming it would not be directly targeted”. Experience of the last fifteen months in Gaza should have alerted them to the 99% likelihood it would be targeted because it would be considered to be a “Hamas command and control centre” as the IDF usually describes bombed former hospitals, school buildings or tent encampments as having been.

I know this thread is about the hospital, but as there was also discussion about the aid convoys, this is further news. This time not about armed gangs vs. Hamas taking over shipments but the IDF having opened fire on a UN World Food Programme’s convoy.

(Haaretz)

^GAZA: The UN World Food Program said that it "will continue to try and bring life-saving aid to populations facing extreme hunger and at risk of famine," a day after it reported that Israeli forces opened fire on its convoy in Gaza. The WFP urged "all parties to the conflict [to] uphold their obligations under international humanitarian law, specifically enabling the protection of the civilian population, and safe passage of humanitarian assistance."

• In response, the IDF said that "the incident was reviewed, operating procedures have been clarified, and findings from the inquiry will be analyzed."

The Times of Israel also reported on this on 6th.
www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/world-food-programme-accuses-israel-of-firing-on-aid-convoy-in-gaza-no-comment-from-idf/

From Reuters:
”The gangs are formed along tribal and family lines, and include some criminal elements freed from prisons in Gaza during the Israeli offensive, according to relief and transport workers in Gaza.
The U.N. and the United States have pressed Israel to restore commercial shipments, saying that flooding Gaza with food would drive down prices and discourage looters, but Israeli authorities have not agreed to do so.”
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/looting-cripples-food-supply-gaza-despite-israeli-pledge-tackle-gangs-sources-2024-12-24/

Thank you for taking the time to give such a measured and helpful post

Agreed. Thank you.

In this case, I feel it is both of them not really trying to stop criminal gangs because they are too busy fighting each other. IDF has the overall legal responsibility as the occupying power to get humanitarian aid to the civilians but their heavy handedness has created the climate in which this looting is flourishing. Hamas is either too weak to keep law and order in Gaza while fighting a war (most probable given how long and how few and how ill equipped they are), or they feel that Palestinians are a necessary sacrifice and fighting IDF takes priority.

However, I don’t know if you heard but several months ago the IDF military leaders did offer to escort aid all the way to the humanitarian depots but the Israeli civilian leadership rejected this obvious solution out of fear that Hamas would then attack the convoys because it’s an opportunity to kill Israeli soldiers.

Which Hamas probably would, let’s be honest.

So anyway, legal responsibility is always tempered by what is realistically possible in a circumstance and also intentions. So I am sure this will be for the ICJ to hash out once all the evidence is known.

Thank you.
I do agree Israel bears considerable responsibility ( as does Hamas)

I was mainly responding to a pp who wrote “.There is no 'but Hamas 😭', Israel are occupying Gaza so the buck stops with them.” Which I thought ignored the role of Hamas

What is hard to believe is that the PA who isn’t anywhere near Gaza and can’t go into Gaza thinks they know better than the IDF who is in Gaza.

What we do know is that the PA hate Hamas. Hamas took Gaza from them, and did summary executions, torture and disappearing of the former PA officials in Gaza.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c93qevdpzvqo

Amid severe food shortages in Gaza, increasingly violent thefts by criminal gangs are now the main obstacle to distributing supplies in the south, aid workers and locals say.
They allege that armed men operate within plain sight of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in a restricted zone by the border.

The BBC has learnt that Hamas - sensing an opportunity to regain its faltering control - has reactivated a special security force to combat theft and banditry.

A notorious Gazan criminal family then blocked the main Salah al-Din Road leading from Israel’s Kerem Shalom crossing point for two days last week.

“It is tactical, systematic, criminal looting,” says Georgios Petropoulos, head of the UN’s humanitarian office, Ocha, in Gaza.

He says this is leading to “ultra-violence” in all directions - “from the looters towards the truckers, from the IDF towards the police, and from the police towards the looters”.

There has been increased lawlessness in Gaza since Israel began targeting police officers early this year, citing their role in Hamas governance.

It’s hard to believe the “armed groups “ are acting independently of Hamas and without their consent .
https://www.algemeiner.com/2024/09/26/palestinian-authority-says-hamas-is-stealing-aid-meant-for-gaza-civilians/

I do agree that the IDF should make greater efforts to ensure the right people get the aid

The armed groups haven’t been identified as Hamas. Even the IDF who has stood idly by and watched the armed groups kill convoy security and drivers while doing nothing to stop it have not even hinted that these gangs are Hamas.

What should be happening is the IDF should be providing armed escort for the convoys and protecting them from the lawless armed groups of starving desperate people.

Of course, it does but what do you think happens when food is deliberately kept scarce? Black market flourishes.
It happened in France, My parents grew up under German occupation. They experienced hunger whilst the Germans didn't.
Both Hamas and the Israeli government bear responsibility.