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Conflict in the Middle East

Slovenia Demands Israel's Removal From Eurovision 2025

842 replies

EasterIssland · 23/12/2024 15:51

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-12-22/ty-article/.premium/slovenia-demands-israels-removal-from-eurovision-2025/00000193-ed37-da9f-ad9b-ed7f3d140000

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SharonEllis · 03/01/2025 17:12

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 16:38

They relate to individuals who occupy the highest office in the country. We are not talking about any Tom, Dick and Harry here but the head of a government, democratically elected btw, who is ultimately responsible (on behalf of Israelis) for the actions he has taken.
Of course, guilt has to be proven but it isn't a great to find your name on a list which has Putin, a Hamas leader and many others on it.
People are innocent until proven guilty in any normal jurisdiction.
Well tell that to the thousands of Palestinians imprisoned in Israeli jails.

'Isnt great' is not a legal principle. Its what people say when they've got no option left but to move the goalposts

SharonEllis · 03/01/2025 17:10

wanderingstar23 · 03/01/2025 16:42

in this case a three judge panel found there were reasonable grounds to believe that various crimes had been committed and therefore arrest warrants were issued. So interesting that you spent so much time arguing above that a letter from LFI is akin to black letter law yet you seem to want to suggest that there is nothing here at all despite three international judges examining all the evidence and deciding that on balance there’s something there.

All normal legal systems have an evidential threshold for deciding to proceed with a prosecution (thats the job of the CPS here) or issuing arrest warrants. That is NOT the same as the threshold for deciding someone is guilty. It really is such an important distinction. Innocent till proven guilty is a key principle of the rule of law. To dispense with that is textbook holding Israel & Israelis to a different standard.

wanderingstar23 · 03/01/2025 16:52

IAmAHomewardBounder · 03/01/2025 16:00

That's surely a belief not a fact? Representing a country for a sporting competition isn't the same as representing the government of that country. Otherwise Labour sportspeople couldn't compete under a Conservative government, and vice versa.

This makes no sense but the point isn’t that anyone thinks someone representing Israel at bowls is somehow akin to one of the cabinet ministers ordering attacks on Gaza. Or whether it’s ok to ban private Israeli citizens from anything (it isn’t). It’s about boycott and sanctions of Israel in the context of international sporting competitions which if it were to happen would by definition mean preventing anyone representing Israel from
taking part. Call it splitting hairs if you like but that’s the real issue here.

Whatsinanamehey · 03/01/2025 16:52

wanderingstar23 · 03/01/2025 16:42

in this case a three judge panel found there were reasonable grounds to believe that various crimes had been committed and therefore arrest warrants were issued. So interesting that you spent so much time arguing above that a letter from LFI is akin to black letter law yet you seem to want to suggest that there is nothing here at all despite three international judges examining all the evidence and deciding that on balance there’s something there.

My thoughts exactly.

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 16:48

SharonEllis · 03/01/2025 16:23

Oh dear, this is a bit desperate. 'Ain't got nothing' is a perfectly normal colloquial expression that everyone understands.

Desperate? No. Why would I be?

wanderingstar23 · 03/01/2025 16:42

SharonEllis · 03/01/2025 16:10

Nonsense. The arrest warrants relate to individuals. Other citizens of that country are not responsible. And a warrant is just a warrant for arrest. People are innocent until proven guilty in any normal jurisdiction.

in this case a three judge panel found there were reasonable grounds to believe that various crimes had been committed and therefore arrest warrants were issued. So interesting that you spent so much time arguing above that a letter from LFI is akin to black letter law yet you seem to want to suggest that there is nothing here at all despite three international judges examining all the evidence and deciding that on balance there’s something there.

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 16:38

SharonEllis · 03/01/2025 16:10

Nonsense. The arrest warrants relate to individuals. Other citizens of that country are not responsible. And a warrant is just a warrant for arrest. People are innocent until proven guilty in any normal jurisdiction.

They relate to individuals who occupy the highest office in the country. We are not talking about any Tom, Dick and Harry here but the head of a government, democratically elected btw, who is ultimately responsible (on behalf of Israelis) for the actions he has taken.
Of course, guilt has to be proven but it isn't a great to find your name on a list which has Putin, a Hamas leader and many others on it.
People are innocent until proven guilty in any normal jurisdiction.
Well tell that to the thousands of Palestinians imprisoned in Israeli jails.

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 16:25

IAmAHomewardBounder · 03/01/2025 16:00

That's surely a belief not a fact? Representing a country for a sporting competition isn't the same as representing the government of that country. Otherwise Labour sportspeople couldn't compete under a Conservative government, and vice versa.

The democratic elected government of any country is, by default, the representative of their citizens.
Your last point doesn't make sense because you are talking about different political parties in the same country whilst the talk is about nationality.

BoydTheApe · 03/01/2025 16:23

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 16:00

Eh?

Sorry, what do you not understand?

SharonEllis · 03/01/2025 16:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Oh dear, this is a bit desperate. 'Ain't got nothing' is a perfectly normal colloquial expression that everyone understands.

BoydTheApe · 03/01/2025 16:23

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 16:02

The utter irony of this statement!

How so?

SharonEllis · 03/01/2025 16:20

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 16:11

They were not splitting hairs or try to undermine you. If you feel that way, maybe that is on you. They were actually explaining why the term UK laws does not exist.
I have learnt something I didn't know, Thanks @wanderingstar23

I didnt say they were trying to undermine me - they were undermining the other poster and being needlessly technocratic when we all understood what the poster was talking about which was law in the UK.The term UK law certainly does exist as you can see here and throughout this website https://www.legislation.gov.uk/understanding-legislation#Howlegislationworks

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 16:18

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 16:11

SharonEllis · 03/01/2025 08:40

Its hard to take anyone seriously who splits hairs in order to deliberately undermine someone when they know full well what they meant. And we still have a UK Parliament!

They were not splitting hairs or try to undermine you. If you feel that way, maybe that is on you. They were actually explaining why the term UK laws does not exist.
I have learnt something I didn't know, Thanks @wanderingstar23

SharonEllis · 03/01/2025 16:10

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 15:50

When you participate in international competitions, you represent that country. and its government. Fact.
If that country breaks international laws and the head of the government has an arrest warrant for war crimes and crimes against humanity, you represent this too.

Nonsense. The arrest warrants relate to individuals. Other citizens of that country are not responsible. And a warrant is just a warrant for arrest. People are innocent until proven guilty in any normal jurisdiction.

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 16:02

BoydTheApe · 02/01/2025 23:34

Better by discriminating against people because of their nationality. Ew.

The utter irony of this statement!

IAmAHomewardBounder · 03/01/2025 16:00

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 15:50

When you participate in international competitions, you represent that country. and its government. Fact.
If that country breaks international laws and the head of the government has an arrest warrant for war crimes and crimes against humanity, you represent this too.

That's surely a belief not a fact? Representing a country for a sporting competition isn't the same as representing the government of that country. Otherwise Labour sportspeople couldn't compete under a Conservative government, and vice versa.

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 16:00

BoydTheApe · 02/01/2025 23:32

No, I don't think that's what they poster said at all. They seem to think all Israeli citizens should be discriminated against because they as a whole voted for the current government.

Eh?

Auvergne63 · 03/01/2025 15:50

BoydTheApe · 02/01/2025 23:27

Well thankfully the law disagrees with you.

Although the irony of you talking about fairness while wanting people to be discriminated against based on their nationality is not lost on me.

When you participate in international competitions, you represent that country. and its government. Fact.
If that country breaks international laws and the head of the government has an arrest warrant for war crimes and crimes against humanity, you represent this too.

Daftasabroom · 03/01/2025 13:32

wanderingstar23 · 03/01/2025 12:29

As I said, I have some good book recommendations if you’d like to start the year on a positive note.

A Balcony Over Jerusalem by John Lyons.

wanderingstar23 · 03/01/2025 12:29

stomachamelon · 03/01/2025 12:02

At Potters Bar?... wow lawn bowls has changed since the last time I watched it on the tv.

If splitting hairs and punctuation are what you got in this discussion you ain't got nothing.

As I said, I have some good book recommendations if you’d like to start the year on a positive note.

wanderingstar23 · 03/01/2025 12:27

SharonEllis · 03/01/2025 12:06

Nobody regards law as gospel. Law is open to interpretation and it changes. I do rate the legal expertise of UKLFI over randoms on MN though.

Curious that you didn’t seem to have much grasp of the legal issues at stake in the case. It’s almost as if you just grabbed onto a quote from a legal letter to back up what you already think, and then tried to assert it was gospel until you were called out on that.

SharonEllis · 03/01/2025 12:06

wanderingstar23 · 03/01/2025 09:16

No - I’m not splitting hairs. You and another poster came on here to suggest that the word of LFI on “uk law” is gospel. I’m suggesting you don’t have the requisite understanding of law to be making that claim and providing useful background as a counter to your position.

Nobody regards law as gospel. Law is open to interpretation and it changes. I do rate the legal expertise of UKLFI over randoms on MN though.

stomachamelon · 03/01/2025 12:02

At Potters Bar?... wow lawn bowls has changed since the last time I watched it on the tv.

If splitting hairs and punctuation are what you got in this discussion you ain't got nothing.

wanderingstar23 · 03/01/2025 11:45

stomachamelon · 03/01/2025 11:30

I wonder what's missing in your life that you feel the need to do that? After all it's somewhat academic.

“overt act of discrimination against Israeli participants, who are excluded solely on the basis of their nationality”.

Yes well done your punctuation is impeccable.