Slovenia Demands Israel's Removal From Eurovision 2025

Yes, I suppose I was talking about previous occasions when convicted criminals have been released as I don't know who is on the list this time. And even if they havent been convicted they may have been involved in terrorist activity.

It's negotiations and no not always palatable but concessions need to be made. I would argue that Palestinians have paid a huge price for what Hamas did and if you add that to the table I don't see an imbalance. Maybe if the arrest of Netanyahu and Gallant is added to the table less convicted Palestinian prisoners could be released.

I’m not sure that most Palestinian detainees have been convicted of anything, because they aren’t being held under the same system of criminal law and process that would otherwise apply in Israel. There has been a huge uptick in arbitrary detention of Palestinians since October 7th too. https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/g24/032/34/pdf/g2403234.pdf.

Agreed that Netanyahu & his extremists have to go for any real progress to be made. the idea that people just have to accept that Israel has to release several convicted criminals and terrorists in exchange for each innocent civilian hostage is a horrific imbalance though. And yet it always seems to be the case. The irony that some of those captured were involved in work to deal with the dehumanisation on both sides is painful too.

I await a post justifying the kidnapping and retention of hostages which is a war crime and which triggered this conflict.
Why are you awaiting that? Who here do you think justifies it? Who here hasn't called for the release of hostages?

Solution to what? The hostage situation or the untenable situation that the state of Israel is currently in? With the former definitely a ceasefire and probably some kind of reciprocal release of Palestinian detainees in Israel. With the latter - it’s clearly really complex and challenging. I think first of all Israel needs a leader who is at least committed to a two state solution which Netanyahu demonstrably is not. I personally don’t think a two state solution would be just or lasting but it could be a good starting point and pragmatically there is a chance it could happen within the next few decades. Lots of mainstream jews would or do support anti occupation in that sense. But from an international law perspective I don’t see how the issue of reparations or right of return for those expelled from 48 can be avoided. I know people instantly shout about jews being outnumbered if this is even discussed but it has to be engaged with in some way, even if those in power are able to say - we aren’t ready to even discuss this yet but we recognise that as a matter of international legal principle, it’s a thing. I think working to address dehumanisation of the other group, on both sides, is the real work that people with some stake in this conflict can do, starting right now, not just in Israel but equally importantly in the diaspora. That’s what Israelism the film is about. She’s no less Jewish at the end of the film.

So what's your solution then? I never get an answer to that one.

Why would anyone want to post in support of taking and holding hostages? Do you genuinely think that people who criticise the Israeli state necessarily must support Hamas? Is the world that black and white to you?

Netanyahu is probably the simplest one word answer. but unfortunately answering that question doesn’t get us to a rich enough understanding of the current situation if we want a lasting solution. For years he pursued a laissez faire attitude to Hamas, allowing copious amounts of funding to reach them because he gambled that a strong Hamas in Gaza mitigated against the possibility of a united Palestine - which for obvious reasons he didn’t want. This led to Hamas accumulating the resources and capacity to do what they did. He sort of won an election but had to get into bed with extremely right wing settler types to exert any power. He also then used the October 7th attacks as an opportunity not to prioritise the return of the hostages but to pursue existing strategic goals of his which include preventing any possibility of Palestinian statehood, getting rid of more Palestinians, and taking greater control of Gaza. He also has used this term of presidency, similarly to Trump, as a way to evade personal criminal responsibility.

I await a post justifying the kidnapping and retention of hostages which is a war crime and which triggered this conflict. The Israelis were quite content to just let Hamas fire the odd rocket over as they had been doing for months as long as they didn't escalate. Hamas chose to escalate on October 7th. I was on holiday at the time with several Jewish friends who had family living in Israel.

Thanks for your detailed post. Now if Hamas had returned the hostages quickly there would have been no continuation of the war. Can anyone answer why there are still hostages being held? Supposing they're still alive.

I take great exception to anyone suggesting that it is antisemitic to simply criticise Israel, and using that as a way to try to shut down and control public debate. many Jewish people are appalled by what is happening and are starting to really question what has been presented to many of us since before we could talk, as a doctrine of liberation. The modern state of Israel was built on extreme violence and the genocide we see now is directly connected to that. It’s not pleasant to contemplate but how can there be an authentic future if people who can’t face the truth do the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting the same things over and over as a way to avoid engaging and shut down debate. But there are some brave people with backbone who won’t turn away, like the woman who made this film which I would implore everyone to watch. https://www.israelismfilm.com/

Just a bit on the repression of Kurds in Turkey - from wiki for ease of having it all in one place. I certainly know many people in the human rights community who avoid Turkey (e.g. for holiday) because of its appalling human rights record but its never been a cause that has really taken off.

Following the military coup of 1980, the Kurdish languages were officially prohibited in public and private life.[12] Many people who spoke, published, or sang in Kurdish were arrested and imprisoned.[13] In Turkey, it is illegal to use Kurdish as a language of instruction in both public and private schools. The Kurdish language is only allowed as a subject in some schools.[14]

Since the 1970s, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) has condemned Turkey for thousands of human rights abuses.[119][120] The judgments are related to executions of Kurdish civilians,[121] torturing,[122] forced displacements,[123] destroyed villages,[124] arbitrary arrests,[125] murdered and disappeared Kurdish journalists.[126] To cite a recent case, in 2018 and 2020, the ECHR ruled that the arrest and ongoing imprisonment of Selahattin Demirtaş was contrary to five articles in the European Convention on Human Rights and had the "ulterior purpose of stifling pluralism and limiting freedom of political debate"[127][128] and ordered Turkey to pay him 25,000 Euros in compensation.[129] Turkey refused to release him.[130]
The European Commission Against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI) reports that (as of April 2010): "The public use by officials of the Kurdish language lays them open to prosecution, and public defence by individuals of Kurdish or minority interests also frequently leads to prosecutions under the Criminal Code."[131] From the 1994 briefing at the International Human Rights Law Group: "the problem in Turkey is the Constitution is against the Kurds and the apartheid constitution is very similar to it."[132]
In 1998 Leyla Zana received a jail sentence.[133] This prompted one member of the U.S. House of Representative, Elizabeth Furse, to accuse Turkey of being a racist state and continuing to deny the Kurds a voice in the state". Abbas Manafy from New Mexico Highlands University claims "The Kurdish deprivation of their own culture, language, and tradition is incompatible with democratic norms. It reflects an apartheid system that victimizes minorities like Armenians, Kurds, and Alevis."[134]

Seconded!

This!

There is no genocide of Kurds in that area. The Kurds are %10-20 of the population in that area and not all of them support the Marxist-Leninist terrorist group YPG. Aren't you guys tired of this type of what aboutism?

If illegal occupation is sufficient enough for disqualification, Israel should have been disqualified long ago.

"Are any other countries in the Eurovision doing something that is so abhorrently against our Western values?"

These are human values. Killing civilians, especially children are abhorrent in Eastern values as well.

No They aren't. It was me using quotes from the culture minister and the EBU to explain to you why Russia is no different from Israel like you claim. Both would bring the Eurovision into disrupute and both have no respect for the culture surrounding the Eurovision. If Russia was kicked out then precedent and fairness says Israel should be too.

Really interesting to hear from someone who was there. I hope the participants have had support for what must have been a much more stressful experience than they expected. I didn't know Joost was ND, which must have made things very difficult for him. Hopefully Eurovision can get back to what it was some time, though I confess I don't know how, given the current political trajectory and the strong public sentiment around that. But here's hoping.

Those are not my quotes.

@PoloMum And they have since set a precedent by banning Russia. If as Nadine Doris said the Eurovision stands for freedom, unity and respect then Israel don't belong. They don't share those values.