Can anyone help me undestand who we want to win in Syria?

My note of caution is most Islamist movements in the Arab world involve a degree of coercion that a percentage of the population does not want. They may start off looking reasonable and inclusive but tend to revert to repressive, dictatorial type when installed in power. But let’s hope this won’t be the case here.

We knew the regime was cruel but the footage of a toddler in prison broke my heart a little bit more. I hope they can save those that are trapped underground.
What is it about underground lairs? Bond fixation? Morloch genes? Trying to get closer to hell?

https://www.thetimes.com/world/middle-east/article/syria-how-rebels-overthrew-bashar-al-assad-td57v5cnm

From the Times, today. It may not get you behind the paywall. Edited to add the paywall sentence.

Daesh is a low threshold to beat, but there's a full 1000 words on the OP Ed pages of the FT Weekend edition about the leader, who has only rarely been interviewed by Western media. I would link it, but it will be behind the paywall.

Abu Mohammed al-Jolani seems to be making the right noises so far. I want to believe that a better regime is possible, as I am sure we all do.

Maybe they can rebrand like lucozade. People only have long memories when it suits.

@Papyrophile

"From my reading of the weekend UK press (The Times, BBC WS and FT mostly) there's a fingers crossed feeling that HTS could be positive."

Given their origins from Al Qaeda I think the feeling is more of a hope over reality.

Yes I definitely agree to this.

I do too. I think societies need to organically settle on the best way to achieve prosperity and stability for them, democracy is perhaps yet another Western export?

I think the UK will now review whether to reverse their status as a proscribed group.

Just a placemarker to remind me to come back and read this more carefully. From my reading of the weekend UK press (The Times, BBC WS and FT mostly) there's a fingers crossed feeling that HTS could be positive.

Has anyone been seeing the footage of Saydnaya prison?
There's cctv showing many prisoners underground in dungeon type cells but they haven't been able to locate an opening and how to free them. It's the stuff of nightmares.

Yes I definitely agree to this.

One thing I noticed about the Arab Spring and commented on at the time was that the countries with a monarch remained stable.

@Whatsinanamehey I wrote as a response to you to support what you're saying, nothing I object what you've written before.

Democracy sounds great in theory but in today's world it is being used as a tool to meddle with the internal happenings of a country to bring it to a desired state by the powers imposing it. It's not a coincidence that all these 'undemocratic' countries, especially with valuable resources or critical positions, have a closed type of governance rather than open democracy as it seems like this is the only way to protect themselves. Having said these, I prefer to live in a democracy but I don't want other countries to be 'bombed into democracies' without any regard to human life, or their cultures.

Heart would like to see the emergence of a pluralistic govt. that looks after all the different groups in Syria, and is a force for stability in the region.

Head says that after a brief honeymoon, we'll see the collapse into factional fighting between diverse, shifting alliances, similar to what we've seen in Libya, with the next strongman eventually taking over.

Syrian people have a reputation for decency, so it would be great to see them get a break. Likewise the Kurds who did the spadework against Daesh.

I'm not terribly optimistic, but best to let them get on with it.

A chastened Iran is most welcome - it would be nice to see that regime toppled too.

@Whatsinanamehey

"Democracy is not the only way to guarantee stability and should not be imposed on people who may not want it just because the west think so."

Totally agree and funnily enough most people would prefer to have stability, absence of civil war, death and destruction over "democratic rights" every time.

@1dayatatime this is what I meant, Jordan as you say is an example of a country that has stability but Is not a democracy. Democracy is not the only way to guarantee stability and should not be imposed on people who may not want it just because the west think so.

@Hunglikeapolevaulter

"I've lived in Dubai and Qatar and the rulers are definitely far more loved and held in much greater esteem than any British politician (admittedly people are also far less free to critisise them, but most of the sentiment seems genuine)."

I can't comment about Dubai or Qatar but I can say that the vast vast majority of Jordanians show great affection, respect and have high esteem for King Abdullah and Queen Noor.

Of course there will always be some who disagree but the best counter argument is to ask them to look across the borders to Israel, Syria and Iraq and ask whether they would still like to remove the King?

Jordan is not blessed with oil and gas revenues like Iraq, Kuwait or Saudi yet still manages to be an oasis of stability, safety and peace whilst surrounded by nut job neighbours. And this is largely thanks to King Abdullah.

There are no democracies in the Arab world. Only monarchies ( without democratic government) , or dictatorships of varying degrees of viciousness. Syria has been one of the worst. I grew up in an Arab country; and here in the U.K. I have or have had Arab colleagues tell me openly that Arabs are not suited to democracy. What they want is a dictatorship that runs mostly for the benefit of the people, not a small clique and then represses everyone else.

This makes sense tbh. I'm thinking UAE, Qatar, Bahrain etc, where most of the population are happy and of course very prosperous. Saudi to some extent too.

I've lived in Dubai and Qatar and the rulers are definitely far more loved and held in much greater esteem than any British politician (admittedly people are also far less free to critisise them, but most of the sentiment seems genuine).

Anyway, with regard blasphemy, just settling down to watch Mary on Netflix.

I'm quite content living in a western democracy myself and it wasn't a criticism. My point merely was that imposing a western style democracy on a people who don't necessarily want that is not the best way to go about things. There needs to be considerations on what the people want. What do most of the Syrians want? I don't know the answer to that myself but that Is what should be asked.

Of course people are less oppressed in democracies. Those of us who live in democracies shouldn't be so defensive about it. I'm sure we'd be delighted if there was a non-western-democratic model in the Arab world where people lived fulfilled lives and I know the many refugees from the region would like it too.

It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. I'm thinking more along the lines of what happened in Libya after the toppling of Gaddafi.

Like Afghanistan, for example? If only westerners realised that their way isn't always best and it's much more suited to Afghan women not to speak to each other, be allowed out without men, or get educated and have jobs.

I fear a new Syrian leadership might just be the Syrian Taliban.