Ireland believe genocide being perpetrated

“Purspectiveplease · Today 18:52
Zionism is one of the most successful decolonisation projects in history. Virtually the entire Middle East was once an Arabic-speaking, Muslim empire and now there is a tiny corner with a sovereign state which has the language and religion of the indigenous people, not the conquerors. I would say they have successfully fought for independence. Now they just have to defend it!”

…,,,

In this you seem to be suggesting that the returning Jews are the righteous, indigenous people kicking out non-Indigenous, murderous conquerors who had been squatting on their land for two thousand years.

Just because indigenous people, remaining in this land after most of the Jews left in ancient times, took on the religion and language of their conquerors, does not mean they were not indigenous. Over time the people would become a mixture of various incomers/conquerors and the original people.

If the Christian rulers of Spain had not succeeded in expelling the Moors, but the Moors had continued living there up until now, having more and more influence, and spreading or enforcing Islam, you would not assume all the people in Spain were not Spanish but Moors.

Jewish people too would themselves
be a mixture depending on where they were living over the intervening thousands of years, even when they remained Jewish by religion.

In 1878 Palestine 3% of the people were indigenous Jews, 2% were foreign born Jews, 85% were Muslims ( among whom there would have be indigenous people) and 9% Christians ( again these would include indigenous people).

The idea that only the Jews have a right to live in this land, because they are indigenous and Palestinians are somehow not, and that the Israeli Jews are simply righteous returners to their own homes after two thousand years, and are blameless, successful kickers-outer of nasty usurping conquerors - seems mistaken to me.

This land cannot be either an exclusively Jewish nor an exclusively Palestinian homeland now.

What a dreadful predicament.

Not to my knowledge. My impression is that the majority of Zionists would gladly abandon the settlements if it meant the Palestinians would accept Israel’s right to exist. There have been multiple land-for-peace deals offered and rejected.

The Palestinians were “already living in Israel” like the British were “already living in Ireland” ie the specific individuals may have been born there, but their ancestors got there through conquest and empire building.

Arabs did do most of those things. Jews were second class citizens in the caliphate, payed extra taxes and were prohibited from doing certain things such as accessing some courts, owning land above a certain amount, working in specific industries etc. The Arab conquest was brutal and the Arabs continued treat the Jewish minority badly during the era of caliphates and the Ottomans. The racism against Jews by the Arab majority continued even when the British empire “acquired” Transjordan from the Turks.

Exactly, rather it was the other way round. Zionism is founded on the murder and expulsion of thousands of indigenous Palestinians who were already living on the land.

Does political zionism include the expansion of settlements?

But the Palestinians didn't come in, take their homes and make them pay rent to stay there, stop them from practicing their religion, starve them, send in their own special branch of police to keep control of them, ALL of which the British have done to the Irish through the hundreds of years of occupation here, so no there's no similarities whatsoever

Care to explain why?

👩‍🍳

I don’t think your analogy works though.

Of course.

I think, if you’re claiming my summary of Irish history is entirely wrong and yet you’re unable to identify a single statement I said which was inaccurate, you should probably withdraw your accusation. All you’ve done is call me names rather than address the substance of what I said.
If you feel that non-Irish people are not qualified to speak about Irish history then I hope you equally stop talking about the history of the Middle East.

Are you a political zionist?

It simply isn't the same. I am not going to go down the middle east worm hole. It isn't up to Irish people to educate you, it is up to you to go to a reliable source. Your comment about reflection is like a five year olds.

Goodbye stay in your ignorance of Ireland and whatever you do please stop telling us our own history 🤦‍♀️

Israel is also a sovereign nation, Israeli land since the beginning of time. Their ancestors, culture and religion still shape their nationality too. Subsequently being swallowed up by empires doesn’t undo anyone’s right to their homeland and sovereignty in it, even if that sometimes requires war to achieve or defend. I don't understand how you aren't getting this.

Just because the histories are not 100% identical does not mean it isn’t useful and interesting to draw parallels between the (overwhelming majority of) aspects which are the same. Again, if you think I made a mistake in my summary of Irish history, please do tell me what part I got wrong. That’s an open offer to anyone reading this. If your objection is simply that you don’t like the similarities, or that you don’t like the cognitive dissonance that comes from recognising them, then I’d say that reflects more on you than on me.

By committing genocide? I think there's better ways of defending it

My point was about the Ango-Irish people who were forced out, not the ones who stayed. In my analogy, the Ango-Irish who stayed would be the Arab citizens of Israel, not the Palestinian refugees in refugee camps.

Does it?

Zionism is one of the most successful decolonisation projects in history. Virtually the entire Middle East was once an Arabic-speaking, Muslim empire and now there is a tiny corner with a sovereign state which has the language and religion of the indigenous people, not the conquerors. I would say they have successfully fought for independence. Now they just have to defend it!

You may find this informative @Purspectiveplease. It goes on a bit but the start of the piece outlines the many reasons the Anglo Irish population declined in Ireland after independence, and most weren’t to do with being ‘forced out’.

www.quora.com/What-happened-to-the-Anglo-Irish-population-in-Ireland-after-independence

"From the river to the sea" has been a common, and virtually unchallenged, chant everywhere in the last year. That is a call for the total destruction of Israel, not the settlements. I've also seen maps of Israel where the entirety of Israel is crossed out and coloured as Palestine. Lots of people loudly and proudly claim "I'm not antisemitic, I'm just anti Israel / anti zionism.” Zionism is the political movement for the existence of a Jewish state, not for the existence of settlements.

I am strongly for a 2 state solution and as soon as the Paelstinains can elect a leader who is also advocating for a 2 state solution, I will support that leader. In the meantime, Gaza is led by Hamas whose constitution literally incorporates a clause about being committed to the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews. I do not think Hamas, or anyone connected with them, can realistically be involved in negotiations to find a 2 state solution.

Arabs have historically considered anyone who is not Muslim to inferior to them. There was only ever “peace” for Jews (and other minorities) in the various eras of the caliphate if they consented to being treated as 2nd class citizens and paid extra taxes while being unable to enter certain professions, own land or access certain resources. The British treatment of Irish people was horrific and shameful, but so was the Arab treatment of Jews and other non-Muslims.

@Purspectiveplease I don't understand why you are not getting this and your insistent is obviously only trying to get.a reaction.

Ireland is a sovereign nation, our land since the beginning of time. Our ancestors, culture and our own pre religions established our own gods and goddesses which still shape our nationality.

Israel meanwhile does not have the same history https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44124396.

I am not engaging with your ignorance anymore. You have been told to go and source a reliable source and become informed.

So what you're saying is Israel is fighting for independence from Palestine?

If you have a substantive criticism, or you think anything I said wasn't factually accurate, I'd be happy to address it.

Ireland has been invaded by Britain since recorded history. That doesn't make it less Irish. Israel has been invaded by lots of people since recorded history. That doesn't make it less Israeli. Ireland had British people massacre innocent children and people in very recent history. That was wrong. Israel had Arabs massacre innocent children and people in very recent history. That was also wrong. If you’re offended by these parallels then I think it says more about your opinions about Jews and Israel than it does about my understanding of history.

Does the definition of politicial zionism include the expansion of settlements?