Amsterdam

'Never again" refers to the Holocaust and other genocides. It can't be otherwise. Thinking about it - at the end of ww2 people say, yeah, "not THAT again, but anything similar in other places is absolutely fine"? Even this sentence is too crass, but I wanted the point to be clear. If we make it 'never again' for everyone - then we all are safe. If we narrow it down - then none are safe.
Currently, we are failing badly.

Pot kettle black. Honestly I don't think @Lolapusht is at the table but is certainly perfectly well informed enough to have a view on this thread. They could just release the hostages whether Netanyahu wants them or not fgs. Its their families that want them.

@mouthpipette @Lolapusht if Bibi finds a solution to the situation he's in a world of trouble.
Will be interesting to see what Trump brings.
I'm no friend of Trump.

I don't know how many times Hamas has refused a deal, so please tell me or give links.

All I know, is that on numerous occasions Hamas has refused to return the hostages because Israel has refused to guarantee a permanent ceasefire or withdrawal, were they to do so.

Anything else ?

And if you don’t know how many times Hamas has refused a deal since then you don’t deserve in the room, nevermind a seat at the table

@Lolapusht if you don't know by now that Hamas offered Bibi the hostages last November you don't deserve a voice at the table.

I feel very much the same!! Particularly this,

A lot of what I post will seem one sided in favour of Israel because I never get to the end of thinking “Hang on, that’s not fair…” (I know I’ll probably get jumped on by people screaming “FAIR?! What about Gaza?”.

“Erev Rav is an Antizionist Jewish Collective based in the Netherlands.“
https://erevrav.nl/

I’m not excusing the Maccabi fans’ behaviour, but I wouldn’t say the source is likely to have a balanced/unbiased view on the situation, just because they are apparently a Jewish group, if they are specifically an antizionist organisation

Why is the continued captivity of the hostages dependent on Netanyahu? Again with this narrative. You’re implying that the only reason the hostages haven’t been released is because of Netanyahu and nowhere do you even mention Hamas. This view has been evident all through this thread and is all too common across this site. Time and again, when discussing events it’s whatever Israel has done that is focused upon. I get that it’s not always possible to express sentiments clearly when writing, but it’s not helpful. A lot of what I post will seem one sided in favour of Israel because I never get to the end of thinking “Hang on, that’s not fair…” (I know I’ll probably get jumped on by people screaming “FAIR?! What about Gaza?”. They’re missing the point and I would absolutely engage with them if I thought it would do any good). This post is an excellent example of just that. Those poor souls could get al the help they need if Hamas were to release them. What is it that prevents you from having that as your first thought?

A Jewish organisation from Amsterdam has posted comment on their ig criticising the way the police handled the actions of the Israeli hooligans.

@Lolapusht well I doubt Hamas will help the hostages they captured and NGOs are there to help where they can.
Sorry you can't follow my "ranting ". Maybe you are less cynical than me but those poor souls are unlikely to get any help while Bibi is avoiding his court case.

Oh dear. The hostages don't represent the Israeli government. To hold them (many of who were very opppsed to Netanyahu'd government) responsible for Israeli government action, especially in the context of the posters being put up by Jewish people here literally IS antisemitic.

Yes, I know you were talking about Palestinians. That's the holocaust inversion. Your reference to 'never again' is a reference to the Holocaust. I wasn't referring to your opinion, I said Millie's summary (which you were responding to) was an accurate reflectoin of the broad views of the Left.

You have a very simplistic view of “left” and “right” . People on the extreme of either left or right are bad news .

I’m really struggling to keep up with your ranting posts, but what about NGOs like the Red Cross? Do you expect them to do something?

Why is Hamas not on your list of disgraceful people who haven’t sent anything to the hostages.

You seem to be happy making sweeping statements against Israel but not others. And what do the hostages even have to do with what happened in Amsterdam?

Actually, no that has not been widely 'openly admitted'. Some might have but I was in the Labour Party. It was very real. My goodness your understanding of left wing history is quite shallow & simplistic. You see A lOT of people on the left supporting discrimination & oppression. The union movement has a long history of racism & misogyny. Many on the left have supported oppression in the name of socialism & communism especially in Latin America. Right now there is a hierachy of oppression & a simplistic, didactic approach to decolonisation which is at the heart of the left's complete inability to understand antisemitism amd inabiloty to deal with free speech issues.

Also@SharonEllis hell will freeze over before any government including the Uk or Israel sends more than #thoughtsandprayers to the hostages.
The IDF members are collateral, and lots of the older people were inconvenient left leaning or peace activists. It's a disgrace.

@SharonEllis I'm just pointing to reasons why people might pull down posters without actually being antisemitic. Maybe they hate Israel and feel that Muslim voices are erased.
There a cognitive dissonance at play here, people can see with their own eyes what Israel is doing even though the news on TV tells us everything is fine. Everything is not fine.
It's so harmful to Jews, Muslims, society as a whole.
We should call out violence and racism by Israelis, Muslims whoever.
But as I say, divide and conquer. That's not left wing forces at play.

Ha. You called my opinion a typical lef-wing, I wasn't talking about the left. And now i 'need to do some research about the left' ? I'm talking about universal humanity and not some UK political spectrum.
My reference to holocaust?? No, Sharon, I'm talking about Palestinian children in 2024.

If you have never heard of Red Pepper or Stop the War then you really don't know anything about the left in this country & you need to do some research, if you are going to expect people to listen to your prouncements about the left. And your reference to holocaust inversion is distasteful.

So put posters up of dead children in gaza if you think that will help, noone is stopping you and nobody has said they are afraid of them. The point of the hoatage posters is more that we hope they are alive & that efforts will be made by our government to help facilitate getting them released. Especially British citizen Emily Damari.I dont actually think most of the people tearing down posters are refugees from the region. There is lots of documentation.

A very interesting read
Introduction:
This took place at Amsterdam Central Station, on the evening of November 7th.
The video compares footage from 2 sources, a Dutch photographer and a Dutch journalist. The photographer's footage was used without her consent and disseminated with false context about who was attacking who. The mainstream media has falsely reported on this footage.
The additional footage in this video, from Dutch journalist Ome Bender, shows Maccabi Tel Aviv fans arming themselves with makeshift weapons (wooden planks/metal poles/etc.) and charging at people throughout the night. At one point a Maccabi Tel Aviv fan tries to get Bender to stop recording.
Background:
Photographer Annet de Graaf's original footage was clipped and spread online, with the false claim that locals had attack Maccabi Tel Aviv fans - when it was actually the other way around.
Mainstream media like Sky News, MSNBC and even Al Jazeera have used the clip and have falsely attributed the violence to locals.
de Graaf has reached out to police to become an official witness, since she recorded the footage. She has also expressed her public disappointment with how the media has falsely reported on this particular incident:
https://x.com/iAnnetnl/status/1854957508193906719
de Graaf has confirmed her footage matches with Ome Bender's footage. She also publicly says she will sue the pro-Israel X user in-question for disseminating misinformation.
Quote:
Maccabi supporters were agressive and attacked the Amsterdam citizens in front of Central Station.
https://x.com/iAnnetnl/status/1855058911918739484
https://x.com/iAnnetnl/status/1855158106281677212
She received an apology from at least one journalist for the misleading reporting:
https://x.com/iAnnetnl/status/1855245275880702458
Sources:
Photographer Annet de Graaf's original footage which was selectively clipped by someone online, then disseminated to falsely claim that locals had attacked Maccabi Tel Aviv fans.
de Graaf confronting another X user over their misinformation about the clip

News footage from QudSen:
https://x.com/QudsNen/status/1855135211102634302

@SharonEllis I think the refugees and Lebanese students who've torn down posters are understandably upset.
Should people be afraid of "missing"posters for dead children in Gaza? Or children held in indefinite detention in Palestine?
Or how about a poster which explains just why Netanyahu will not enter negotiations to release the hostages or perhaps one to explain the Hannibal directive?
None of these things are directly connected to the football violence, but they do inform it and there is a context. Morally minded people everywhere were offended by October 7th and are now offended by Israeli actions in the Levant.
Some people are very very angry, this is a bad thing.

@Limesodaagain I've been away having a life.
You sent a link from 2018 about left wing antisemitism. It's actually now been openly admitted that a lot of this was whipped up within the Labour Party to discredit Corbyn.
"The left " don't have one manifesto or agenda. They generally try to improve conditions for the workers and support international human rights.
The "right" have the interests of capital and the wealthy status quo. It's in the interests of those groups to encourage hatred and division.
Oddly you'll not see many of "the left" supporting discrimination and oppression. There are bad actors everywhere who believe in conspiracies- they are the minority.

I never heard of either media sources.
I would guess I'm not the only one very angry at the hypocrisy of the 'west' (primarily the UK and the US governments) who pay lip service to 'never again' yet keep supporting deaths and sufferings of millions of people.
Children used to be universally holy for humanity. Now tens of thousands of children have been killed in the past 12 months and they can't open their mouths to condemn it. So every time they condemn something else the silence on the children is deafening.