Amsterdam

Spot on, I really could not have said it better myself, you have articulated my thoughts exactly. I really hope @SharonEllis reflects on this and how stark the double standards and hypocrisy in her posts are.

When I asked her thoughts on the Maccabi fans singing openly in Israel (so not taunting any opposition fans) just joyously singing how the IDF have murderer all the school children, the response was very wishy washy on yes it's not great but that's what football fans do.

Yet, the mention that 'Never Again' is now used by many to include the prevention of all genocides and even by some for other crimes/atrocities, however this does not diminish the link to the holocaust, I recieved a barrage of posts on how it is so 'grotesque' and what a terrible thing it is to say etc etc. The way they responded you would think I was chanting and laughing at a genocide.

@Lolapusht section 28 banned references to homosexuality.
So you must have been educated somewhere very brave in the 1990s. Some people have selective memories.

The whitewashing of the thugish racist hooligans is a giant disservice to all jewish people. Another layer to cover up the indefensible only raises the temperature everywhere and promotes all sorts of conspiracies.
It is in everyone's intrest not to take that road, but I have no idea who is in control of it (apart from the government of Israel - they do have some control).

LetThereBeLove

Your username is deeply inappropriate. Every single person murdered by the nazis matters as much as any other, regardless of their religion, sexuality, race, physical ability.

You’ve taken my post out of context as it wasn’t referring to Gaza…

@ismu picking sides…you seem to be doing the exact same thing but for the not Israel side🤷🏻‍♀️ Let he who is without sin…

I was educated before, during and after s28 and I certainly knew that it wasn’t just Jews who were persecuted in the Holocaust and I definitely knew that homosexuals were included in that group. Did schools just stop mentioning being gay? Is that why they would have considered that mentioning the Nazis killed homosexuals was promoting homosexuality?

@Hunglikeapolevaulter sigh. The reply about editing wasn't for you.
Only the one about LGBT. Where you deny that there were trans people in the Holocaust.

@Comedycook that doesn't make it ok to edit posts to look more sensible

Holocaust education really wasn't big on LGBT in the 90s so you must have been at a very enlightened school, where they didn't have to worry about Section 28 restrictions. As for Roma/ travellers they have been discriminated against for years and left out of lots of the curriculum.
So I'd say that until Section 28 was repealed there would have been little knowledge of this till the 2000s.

All you need to do really is look at the state of Gaza and look at Israel.

Gaza has been bombed out of existence but Israel is so fine it’s football fans can travel to matches.

I mean, we would not expect to see any Palestinians travel for a match.

So yes. Both sides with bells on.

@ismu
I didn't edit my post, and I was talking about the expropriation by eg trans and "queer" groups of what did happen to gay/homosexual people. God knows what you think I said.

Well you said you only recently discovered that Nazis in ww2 also murdered other groups did you not? When did you find this out?

Some victims are more equal than others

You edited this post to add in your experience at school, rather than accusing me of having an uninformed opinion.

@Comedycook that was tagged for @Hunglikeapolevaulter

@Comedycook the Holocaust was a genocide for Jews and for other groups, much as some people don't want to accept that.
What's happening in Gaza is horrific and illegal. It's not justified by the horrible and illegal events of October 7th, even if some people want to make that claim.
The Maccabi fans were thugs and behaved appallingly. That has to be accepted otherwise the violence afterwards paints them as absolute victims and saints. They are not. It doesn't excuse targeted violence against them.
This thread has yet again full of Israeli apologists trying to claim that they are absolutely beyond reproach and no one else has ever suffered like they have. Which is not true.
Dutch Jewish people living in Amsterdam have criticised the Maccabi fans.
On this thread, it's almost as if some posters have picked one side ( Israel mainly) and will defend anything associated with it to their dying breath.

what a distasteful comment. Are LGBT people less human than Jewish people? They suffered in the Holocaust. Do not deny it!

Point out to me where I denied that homosexuals were persecuted, please.

What on earth are you on about?

@Comedycook I see you've edited your post to make it more reasonable.
You must have benefited from the Holocaust education that I've referred to- it still wasn't common in the 1990s when I started teaching.

@SharonEllis
Once again we have the offense of some posters held higher than actual physical violence people are experiencing(there are many Holocaust survivors for example who do use the words Never Again when referring to all genocides btw)
Up thread the chanting of racist songs about the deaths of children in Gaza was something people should look past and it's no where near as bad as "extreme physical violence" but if a poster uses the words never again when talking about the thousands of dead men women and children we need to get hung up on that's it's offensive to use the words never again. Somehow whether it's words used against Arab people or physical violence against them it's just never that bad. I can't keep up.

I look at those videos of grown men singing and laughing about how there are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left in Gaza knowing that mostly likely those men have or will serve in the IDF and that 44% of verified dead in Gaza are children. Most aged between 5-9. And yet you are resolute that this is a war and not a genocide. Is it a war on children? Where's your humanity?

"everything"

What does that mean? What other things?

@Comedycook actually now you mention it I've generally associated Never Again with Remembrance Day and WW1.
It's a broad term which is pretty useless, really. We can't appropriate absolutely everything for Jewish people nor should we wish to. There can be more than one thing happening at once.

I've always thought "Never again" referred to Jews, but then I always thought that Nazis only targeted Jews and didn't know about Romani people, LGBT or other groups until comparatively recently. That aspect has probably only been common knowledge since the 21st century

I remember studying the holocaust at school in the early 1990s. It was common knowledge that some other groups were targeted....albeit not on the same scale. Just because you didn't know something, don't assume that everyone else didn't too

@LetThereBeLove I think you have misinterpreted what I am trying to say. Everyone knows about the Nazis and their crimes, but as the full horror story is revealed the term has been broadened and now Never Again encompasses more than WW2.
Here's a link to the events of the Belgian Congo where it's believed over 8 million people were killed.

www.thecollector.com/congolese-genocide-colonized-congo/

I think people can just be incredibly evil to others when they have absolute power.

@Hunglikeapolevaulter what a distasteful comment. Are LGBT people less human than Jewish people? They suffered in the Holocaust. Do not deny it!

You spend a whole thread rightly criticising what happened to Jewish people in Amsterdam and then suggest that what is happening in Gaza is just a war. I am sure if what was happening to Palestinians in Gaza was happening to Jewish people you would not be so dismissive. You have said numerous times you've no skin in the game but your bias and views on Palestinians is clear. It's not just a war it is, to many, a genocide stop minimising.

While thousands of others (including gays, people of colour, Romanies etc) than Jews were exterminated by the Nazis and their supporters in countries other than Germany I repeat - SIX MILLION Jewish men, women and children were slaughtered for being Jewish.