Amsterdam

Yes - I agree

I can't believe what I'm reading on here either...attempts to excuse what was a pogrom essentially. This wasn't a clash between football hooligans ( I agree some of them are hooligans btw but so are lots of football supporters) and what happened at the match had no bearing on what happened after...which was a planned, co-ordinated attack against Jews by taxi drivers and other armed Arab men that would have happened anyway. People being attacked and shouting " I'm not Jewish" to make them stop, Jewish people being made to say "free Palestine", being thrown in cold rivers...the footage is just awful and hard to watch. And on the anniversary of Kristallnacht. In Amsterdam. In 2024. Where is " never again" now? I can see how the Holocaust happened. And not because of the actions of the perpetrators.....but because of the response to it, especially by people on the " left" who are so "anti-racism", except when it's Jewish people on the recieving end. Then they tie themselves in naughts with excuses.

What is ‘this’ and what will being ‘over’ look like?

We matter less. It's ok for people to leave us in fear for our safety, or to engage in violence against us. People don't feel a need to condemn it when it happens to us - that's what happens with years of very effective marketing us as 'other'.

It was horrible to see so much hatred and violence against innocent people - Jewish and Muslim - and it was disgusting to see so much disrespect for the minute's silence. Everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves.

Funny they didn't condemn the Islamophobic chants by some of the Maccabi fans too. Racism is racism, regardless of who the victim is and should be denounced equally. I thought that was pretty obvious.

Perhaps Palestinians should be able to expect not to live under occupation, in a system recognised by people around the world as being an apartheid system.

Also Israeli Arabs/ Palestinian citizens of Israel don't have all the exact same rights and protections as other citizens of Israel.

Self-inflicted refers to things people have done to themselves. The innocent people dying are not dying from self-inflicted causes of death, because they are neither the IDF nor Hamas. Many of them were not old enough to have even voted in the election that enabled Hamas to take power.

This is his quote
"I have been to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, and I have witnessed the racially segregated roads and housing that reminded me so much of the conditions we experienced in South Africa under the racist system of Apartheid".
So yes, I trust his opinion. He knew what he was talking about.
But feel free to disregard it.

The violence yesterday is all over and the King Of the Netherlands, the police and various other representatives of the Netherlands has condemned the anti semitism. There is no propaganda about what happened, it happened or do you think all those representatives of The Netherlands are mistaken? Strange response. It happened, its been condemned widely by many.

I guess the Israeli propaganda machine is working very well here.
You cannot defeat propaganda using facts. They don't matter to pro Israeli government supporters. Gabor Mate called this "living in a bubble".
When all this is over, the excuse that they didn't know about it won't wash.
They knew; they chose to ignore it.

I think Desmond Tutu called it an apartheid system. I think he knew what it was talking about, don't you?

What was he talking about then? The Arab Israeli citizens with the same rights, or the Palestinians who aren't Israeli citizens so could hardly expect them?

Spot on.

It appears MN posters know better than all those though.

@Auvergne63 interesting to read that- there's so much knee jerk uncritical reaction.
You'd think the Israel apologists would actually want to find reasons to distance themselves from thugs like the Maccabi ultras.
Nope, it's all antisemitism. Even when the hooligans are laughing about Valencia.

I think Desmond Tutu called it an apartheid system. I think he knew what it was talking about, don't you?

This.

Well then the majority don't not care as per your post then do you? And you can't argue against the polls unless you have some actual data to back that up.

Self inflicted in that Hamas, who are acting for the Palestinians, have had the power to stop this for the past year. They have chosen not to, therefore it’s self inflicted as they choose to allow their people to be killed.

So many excuses for blatant antisemitism. I should be shocked but it’s what I’ve come to expect on Mumsnet.

The way the French press has reported this is quite interesting.
The press from the right barely mentions the actions of the Israeli hooligans whilst from the left, they describe them as des «provocations racistes, d’arrachages de drapeaux» ( racist provocations, coupled with the removal of Palestinian flags). Another one pointed out that the Maccabi fans arbored far right extremists, who are violent and racist. He also added these elements didn't come to Amsterdam to pick up daffodils! In addition, he mentioned the violent assault on a man in Athens by said hooligans.
According to Reuters, another verified video showed Maccabi fans setting off flares and chanting "Ole, ole, let the IDF win, we will fuck the Arabs”, referring to the Israel Defence Forces.
Both condemns the violence as anyone decent should.
I also found it interesting that the founder of FairSquare stated that “Israel’s most senior leaders, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, have openly courted far-right football supporters in Israel and have received their violent support in return. The well-documented racism and violence exhibited by Maccabi Tel Aviv fans in Amsterdam mirrors the thuggery of the Israeli government in Gaza and Lebanon.
"This does not excuse the violence that was meted out to Maccabi Tel Aviv fans, but to present them as innocent victims of antisemitism is a gross misrepresentation of the facts".
“To rid European football of the type of genocidal chanting we saw from Maccabi Tel Aviv fans, Uefa should remind the Israel Football Association of its obligations under article 7(7) of its statutes to stamp out racist behaviour, and impose appropriate sanctions if the IFA does not take action.”
My point is nothing is black and white and it is always useful to use different sources before coming to a conclusion.
I would also like to add that racism is, unfortunately, universal.
The Maccabi fans will be in Paris next week. I hope that this type of scenes are not repeated.

Of course the majority want a ceasefire, but I would argue against people thinking Israel have gone too far. The possibility of a ceasefire is there, if BOTH parties sit and discuss.

Not all of we Jewish Israelis agree that Hamas is an existential threat.

From the Israeli Haaretz based in Jerusalem, an Opinion by
by B. Michael Nov 05, 2024 12:11 AM- child of Holocaust survivors born in 1947

”The Israeli propaganda conglomerate is a somewhat schizophrenic being: abroad - a total failure, at home - a resounding success.
The failure abroad is unavoidable. Even the PR world champions will not be able to market an occupying country that had just killed over 40,000 people (mostly women and children) as an innocent victim fighting in self-defense.
“Yet, as noted above, within Israel itself the success is huge. In the immediate wake of October 7 began the marketing of the greatest lies told in this cursed war: "We are fighting for our very existence," it was declared with pomp, "Hamas is an existential threat."
“Such pronouncements also employ regular body language: a slight inclination of the head into a merciful position, eyes shining with a hint of moisture and a thin smile of melancholy and grace. The speaker is evidently awash with the pleasure of release and sacredness.
In truth? This is pure bullshit. A contemptible militia with an air force comprising a dozen kites, an armored corps of pickup trucks and a navy of inflatable boats, whose missiles even were met with an almost decisive response - is not quite an existential threat to military power rife with brigades, whose air force does whatever it wishes the world over.
You cannot send 100 "surgical" bombers to drop hundreds of tons of bombs 2,000 kilometers away, and then come back home and declare Hamas to be an existential threat. It doesn't mesh well.”
“Hamas is certainly well-enough equipped to be a cruel, insulting annoyance, but "existential threat"? Come on.
“So why is this silly slogan used again and again? Because orchestrated history is a wonderfully useful tool. It renders criticism impotent, it silences, it encourages a sense of victimhood and panic, and also gives those who use it a sense of importance and joy, by demonstrating concern about the fate of the entire Jewish people.
Absolute bullshit, but as effective as castor oil.”
https://apple.news/AnkHspGyGRIKu2Fsdo2c3pw

Oh very clever. Little point to you! 👍

It is not deeply disturbing. If and when they look at the situation fairly my attitude could change.

They should be desperately working for peace between Israel and Gaza and looking for a sustained way forward. They are not doing that and in turn are not helping people in Gaza. So it’s a loss for everyone no matter what side you sit on.

Because the UN isn’t being listened to by those with the power to stop the wars.

At least you accept that you are blinkered I suppose.