Amsterdam

I’m not trying to reframe this into anything. I think you’re the one doing the reframing . I can only go by the news reports and the ones I read suggest this is more than “usual football violence” and innocent victims were attacked because they were Jewish.

I think you're being obtuse. Of course there are innocent victims, for example the taxi driver that was getting his head kicked in by the Maccabi supporters on the days before the match. I'm sure there may be some Israeli fans who they themselves didn't beat those men up but they were being targeted by association (for being part of the group that was beating up locals and singing racist songs) not totally unrelated Jewish Dutch citizens going about their lives which is what I mean by innocent victims . Is it right? No. Are you trying to reframe it into a totally different situation? Yes.

Actually that summary is a pretty accurate summary of the majority view on the far left thoigh people pay lip service to condemning october 7th. Not everyone obviously (there are independent minded people everywhere) but if you read left publications such as Red Pepper, listen to the leading lights of Stop the War etc those are broadly speaking the positions. If you don't align you will have a hard time. Im on the left, I have experienced theses arguments a lot and been accused many times of not being left wing precisely because I don't fall into line.

You specifically said - they weren’t all innocent victims they were all delinquent football supporters… “ Doesn't mean we have to try and paint these deliquent thugs as innocent victims of antisemitism when all the evidence points to them being part of the usual football violence.”
Do you still think , after reading the news reports, there were no innocent victims?

The far-left is an undefined group, there is no objective view or consensus. There are also more than one definition of antisemitism and even more interpretations.
In other words, what you said is not an argument, but rather a statement of your position and a hint of what media you get news from.

I mean even the link you sent me everyone was part of the Israeli football supporters? I know you're probably trying to make a point but it's not clear what it is. Violence isn't excusable, but the initial portrayal in the media was obviously completely incorrect - they are even using footage of the Israeli supporters being thuggish in the streets in their reports of them being attacked because they were in such a rush to report it they didn't bother to verify that the men were Maccabi fans not the people who attacked them.

The posters are of innocent hostages, many of whom were peace activists. One is a British hostage Emily Damari so completely appropriate to put her poster up in the UK. But on the basis that posters are inappropriate becsuse we are not in Gaza, we would have no protests or vigils or expressions of empathy or solidarity etc on either side or indeed for Ukraine, or Aroo Darye, or the women of Afghanistan etc As Im not a little Englander so I couldn't go along with that. Raising awareness of the terrible fate of the hostages is also not pointless to their family members here. I have a colleague at work who is related to a hostage - its not pointless to her. And how do posters & ribbons hurt anyone? Cant you just walk by? The vigil in Brighton is regularly defaced. What are they afraid of?

Can you demonstrate that all the victims were delinquent football supporters ?

This is from the BBC report
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgv4mdr9y8o
Gal Binyanmin Tshuva, 29, told the BBC he was attacked on Wednesday outside a casino after watching a different football game.
"We faced around 20 people who ran towards us. They asked me where I was from, and I said I was from Greece. They said they didn’t believe me and they asked to see my passport.
When he told them he didn't have it, the men beat him, pushed him to the ground and kicked his face, Mr Tshuva said.
"I don’t remember anything after that, and I woke up in an ambulance with blood all over my face, and realised they had broken two of my teeth."
British men Aaron and Jacob, who are Jewish, told the BBC they went to the match, but left early.
Afterwards, they said they saw men yelling antisemitic threats and stamping on an Israeli man. They intervened, helped the man to his feet, and went to leave.
Shortly after, a group asked the men if they were Jewish, and Aaron said that they were British.
“But they said ‘you helped the Jew’, and he punched me in my face and broke my glasses," Aaron said.
“I was bleeding and have a black eye. I’m okay but a bit shaken."

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/shame-of-anitsemitism-on-left-has-long-malign-history

Well as I said if you think differently show me why?
Edited to add : I didn't also say it's a normal brawl between football supporters. I didn't - I said it was a brawl between deliquent football hooligans and my previous comment had a link to the violence the Maccabi fans have participated in previously as well by hospitalising a man. So we have their historical thuggery, the eye witnesses and videos of them in the days before the match beating up local taxi drivers and destroying a taxi, and then what looks like them coming up against people just as deliquent and violent as them but with an opposing point of view.

They are idiots who have fallen for the propaganda no doubt. Absolutely agree they are a disgrace.

And correcting someone (which was probably autocorrect) doesn't make you look clever. Do you really have opinions on this subject and yet don't know about left wing antisemitism? How bizarre. Lots to read as its very well documented but I'd start with David Hirsh 'Leftwing Antisemitism'.

Those 'Jewish activists' should be very ashamed for tearing down posters of fellow Jews held hostage by Hamas terrorists. Not in my name.

The far left are anti semitic. Everything going wrong is the Jews fault. The confiict is all Israel’s fault, they never condemn Hamas who started the conflict and built the terror tunnels strategically to maximise civilian deaths. The far left even support Hamas and call them resistance fighters. Like what they did on October 7th could ever be called resistance, you’d have to be a psychopath to believe it was justified. The far left are very anti semitic.

Extraordinary and incredibly simplistic. You are telling a Jewish person how she has experienced antisemitism? You don't seem to understand what being left is either. Left does not mean 'criticising Israel'. It doesn't even automatically mean supporting human rights (just as a Cuban). I don't even know where to start with that tbh. And you don't even need to 'love Israel' to be able to disentangle and understand modern antisemitism.

Moot @BeFluentPombear
Your point is moot.
Accusing people you don't agree with of being vile is not an argument.
What do you mean by antisemitism by left wing people? What have they said ?

Your original post said the victims were not “innocent victims “ but “delinquent supporters “. That sounded to me as if you thought it was a normal brawl between opposing football supporters. I think there was more to it than that..

The far right aren't particularly interested in Jews these days because they're too busy being Islamophobic, and they're now pretending they like us so they can use us to create division with Muslims.

As evident by the many deleted messages by a certain poster on this thread, so I think you have a point here.

Hostage posters being torn down is inexcusable. There is still a British hostage out there.

You say that some of the people who tore down posters were refugees who suffered at the hands of Israel so they had a right to do so. Well in that case, the Israel fans in Amsterdam had a right to tear down Palestinian flags because of what they have put their country through.

obviously I am not actually saying these two wrongs make a right - I’m hoping you can see double standard view of what you are saying.

@BeFluentPombear how do we talk over each other on a forum?
I think you're confusing Jewish and Israel again.
If left means supporting human rights of Palestinians and criticism of Israel, yes that's going to upset people who love Israel.

yes the far left (and even not that far left) opinion on Jews has never been good and the hate they have towards us is extreme.

I don’t want to derail the post, but the Corbyn years were dire and I found living through his whipped up ideological cult like followers very stressful - and he wasn’t even prime minister, yet he still caused catastrophic damage to British Jews.