Hamas don’t want peace

Israel is making many of them magically disappear. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67103298.

These were powerful men, 4 billionaires included in there. With each one disappearing I sense Palestinians becoming a bit freer to openly criticise Hamas. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj4vw1l8xvdo

Coup d'etats often take place as Tyrants power slips. Foreign powers often encourage and covertly assist.

The Palestinians

If we look at other historical situations where peace deals have been brokered, the largely or in full yes, it would be necessary for a peace deal just as it wouldn't be possible for the zealots in the Ireali government to stay in place. I notice you are reluctant to look at or talk about Israel's role in anything. We have seen successful negotiations in Northern Ireland and South Africa between groups with violent histories, is there a reason you are reluctant to believe in even a possibility that the same can be achieved on this region? It doesn't sound like you do in which case what exactly are you proposing as a solution? Because if you don't believe in negotiations, you don't believe in a two state solution and you don't believe that the innocent children in Palestine aren't accountable for Hamas I can't imagine what you forsee as a solution? You are asking a lot of questions of posters without responding to any of the information they've provided and asking people on Mumsnet to advise what the geography of the two state solution should be and which individuals should be in government without telling us what the alternative is to you. Could you clarify? Do you support a two state solution? If you don't, what's the alternative?

Hamas are not "most people".

You claimed that "most people who support a state of Palestine seem to think that the state of Palestine should encompass the whole of Israel". Is that what you genuinely think people are saying when people say they recognise Palestine and its right to exist?

And who do you think this “Future Palestinian Government “ would be- are you expecting Hamas to magical disappear?

Woiuld Hanas really agree with a two state solution - in reality when it came down to it? What about Jerusalem- who should control that?

You assume all parties want peace (see title of this thread) and a two state solution

How supportive of a 2 state solution are Hamas, really?

"Because most people who support a state of Palestine seem to think that the state of Palestine should encompass the whole of Israel" - where on earth are you getting that from, @Feelingathomenow ? By definition, a two state solution is based on the existence of two states.

Well, that's how peace processes work. People find ways to co-exist because that's preferable to constantly fighting. A two state solution requires a peace process. Or are you suggesting that you don't think there should be two states?

@Feelingathomenow Because most people who support a state of Palestine seem to think that the state of Palestine should encompass the whole of Israel.

Where on Earth did you get that from? That's completely untrue. The majority of people, and governments support a two state solution - which categorically require a state of Israel to exist.

Unless by "whole of Israel" you mean a greater Israel including the Gaza strip and the West Bank - from the river to the sea as some Israeli ultras have proposed (not me appropriating the slogan BTW).

I'm not choosing to ignore them I'm saying you can't conflate the actions of a terrorist group with the actions of a future Palestinian government. It's not based on anything and doesn't have a historical precedent. Its not ignoring the atrocities carried out by Hamas by saying that Israel (unlike Hamas) call them selves a democrative government and are signed up to international laws and rules of war which they consistently break. We don't expect terrorists to follow the rules, we do expect that of governments. That's why I said I wonder if your anxiety that a future Palestinian state wouldn't follow international law is because you see a country you hold as a democratic moral country continually not following it? It would explain why you don't have any faith in it.

So let’s say the Palestinian state was the area that wasn’t historically the kingdoms of Israel and Judah - do you think that would hold? Because most people who support a state of Palestine seem to think that the state of Palestine should encompass the whole of Israel.

it’s a shame that you choose to ignore all the atrocities carried out in Gaza which have nothing to do with Israel. Who do you think would be negotiating on behalf of the Palestinians, do you think Hamas would magically disappear?

I don't need to but do google the term "the state of Israel" and come back and tell me in which year it was created.

Honestly I started skipping past the content of the rest of your post because you either misread or misinterpreted my comment. Hamas and Terror groups are exactly that because they are not recognised international governments signed up international law. Countries such as Israel and any future Palestinian state are and would be and what I was saying is that those laws prosper safety and security for those countries if they mean something to the countries who sign up to them and they are abided by. Perhaps if you're so worried about a future Palestinian state acting in violation of these laws it's because you routinely see Israel do just that?
As for the geography of the state I would never assume to be educated enough to be the deciding person ( pretty sure that's out of the remit of everyone on Mumsnet!) the issue with the "peace offensives" is that they were willing to compromise in order to secure a two state solution and Israel did not want to compromise on there being a Palestinian state at all.

Ill ask again- what would this Palestinian state look like- geographically., we know how it would be run - we only need look at Amnesty Internationals report on Gaza and the West Bank

Violations of international humanitarian law
Abuses by armed groups based in Gaza
In May, Al-Quds Brigades, affiliated with Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and smaller armed groups, fired hundreds of indiscriminate rockets towards Israeli towns, killing two civilians in Israel and three Palestinian civilians in Gaza, including two children. Israeli forces had killed Palestinian fighters as well as 10 civilians in Gaza on 9 May (see Israel and the OPT entry).
On 7 October, Hamas fighters and members of other Palestinian armed groups, and armed individuals, entered southern Israel and attacked military and civilian areas. Video evidence showed fighters deliberately shooting at civilians and taking civilians as hostage. According to Israeli official records, at least 1,000 people were killed, the majority civilians. One of the sites attacked was the Nova music festival in Re’im in south-west Israel, where 364 people were killed, according to the Israeli police.1 Among those killed were Palestinian workers from Gaza and migrant workers from south-east Asia.
Hostage-taking
On 7 October, Palestinian armed groups took some 245 hostages and captives, including children and older people. Hostage-taking is a war crime under international law. Palestinian fighters abducted two-year-old Aviv Asher and her four-year-old sister Raz from kibbutz Nir Oz on 7 October and held them hostage until 24 November. Hamas released four hostages on 20 and 23 October, in coordination with the ICRC. Between 24 and 30 November, Hamas released 105 more hostages, some of whom reported ill-treatment. The ICRC was denied access to those held.
Other unlawful attacks
Some 12,000 indiscriminate rockets fired in the 12 weeks from October killed 15 people in Israel, according to Israeli authorities, and damaged buildings in Israel and Palestine. A rocket fired from Gaza on 7 October killed five children aged between 11 and 14 in the Bedouin village of Kuhleh in the Negev/Naqab in southern Israel. Some 120,000 Israelis were displaced from their homes in southern Israel due to Palestinian armed groups’ attacks.
Freedom of expression and assembly
According to the Palestinian Centre for Development and Media Freedoms (MADA), assaults against journalists increased, especially when they covered events that were critical of the authorities. Palestinian police generally dispersed independent protests quickly, using excessive force.
West Bank
Palestinian security officers routinely harassed protest organizers and dissidents with threatening phone calls and visits. On 18 June, Palestinian Preventive Security forces beat Abdel Majid Hassan, head of Birzeit University student council. They then detained him and fellow student Yahya Farah in Ramallah for a month. The students’ families reported that they were tortured.
In October, Palestinian police used force to disperse demonstrations in solidarity with people in Gaza, in apparent coordination with Israeli military officials. On 17 October, after al-Ahli hospital in Gaza City was hit, protesters in Ramallah, the West Bank’s administrative centre, gathered to protest the inaction of Palestine’s President Mahmoud Abbas. They were dispersed with stun grenades and tear gas.
Gaza Strip
On 30 July and 4 August, thousands of demonstrators in Gaza City and Khan Yunis demanded that the Hamas administration supply fuel and electricity reliably and stop requisitioning welfare payments from families in poverty. The demonstrators were violently dispersed; dozens were arrested. Plain-clothes officers assaulted a journalist covering the protest on 30 July in Gaza City, according to MADA. In Khan Yunis, police destroyed the phones of protesters who had filmed the events, according to journalists at the scene.
Freedom of association
West Bank
Presidential decrees appointed favoured officials throughout governmental and judicial institutions in the West Bank, undermining the independence of the judiciary.
On 5 June, officers interrogated the directors of Aman, a coalition of civil society organizations working for governmental accountability. The directors were accused of “defamation of high officials” after the publication of their annual report on 17 May.
Gaza Strip
In January, Palestinian police officers disrupted workshops for journalists and students organized by a women’s group in Gaza City. Police interrogated staff about violating rules on gender segregation, and forced them to sign morality “pledges”, according to testimonies given to the UN commission of inquiry.
Arbitrary detention
According to the Independent Commission for Human Rights (ICHR), which acts as the Palestinian national human rights institution, 235 Palestinians were arbitrarily detained in the West Bank and 61 in Gaza, where no data is available from October.
In the West Bank, Palestinian legal services organization Lawyers for Justice reported that in June and July, at least 20 journalists, political activists and lawyers were arbitrarily arrested on charges of defaming the Palestinian authorities, inciting ethnic strife, and slandering the president.
Legal proceedings in relation to the 2021 death in custody in the West Bank of dissident Nizar Banat stalled amid bureaucratic delays and intimidation of witnesses.2
Torture and other ill-treatment
ICHR received 94 complaints of torture and other ill-treatment in Palestinian detention in the West Bank and 86 in Gaza.
In Hebron in the West Bank, Palestinian forces arbitrarily detained 22 Palestinians on 23 May and tortured all of them, according to Lawyers for Justice. Consequently, five had to be hospitalized, their families said.
Unlawful killings
On 8 April, members of a Palestinian armed group in Nablus city in the northern West Bank killed a man they suspected of working for Israeli surveillance, the first killing of an alleged “collaborator” in nearly 20 years. On 24 November, members of an armed group in Tulkarem refugee camp west of Nablus publicly killed two Palestinian men who they claimed were “collaborators”. Palestinian police made no arrests in either case.
In Gaza, armed men affiliated with Hamas rounded up approximately a dozen men on 21 November, alleging that they worked for Israeli forces, and summarily killed them.
Death penalty
The Palestinian authorities in Gaza imposed new death sentences, according to Palestinian human rights organization Al Mezan. Executions of prisoners on death row for “collaboration with the enemy” were carried out on 7 October.
Women’s and girls’ rights
Women still did not have equal rights to men in personal status law, which continued to be subject to religious law. According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, 59% of married women and girls experienced violence at the hands of their partner, and the Women’s Centre for Legal Aid and Counselling expected the numbers for 2023 to rise due to conflict and deprivation. Less than 2% of survivors complained to the police, and of those cases, 40% were investigated, according to the Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and Democracy.
Sisters Wissam and Fatimah al-Tawil were arrested without explanation on 5 January from a safe house where they had escaped their father’s abuse. Hamas security services handed them over to their paternal uncle, who drove them to their father’s home in Rafah in the south of Gaza. They were subsequently not heard from directly, as their father held them captive.3
On 25 September, Palestinian police together with UN agencies opened an office for investigating and prosecuting domestic violence in Hebron, after a similar office opened in Nablus.
LGBTI people’s rights
Consensual same-sex sexual conduct continued to be banned in Gaza on the basis of a 1936 British Mandate ordinance.
In September, after the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) published guidance to staff regarding treating all genders and LGBTI people equally, the Hamas authorities condemned the guidance for promoting “deviance and moral decay”.
Right to a healthy environment
Palestinian authorities in the West Bank failed to meet their goal of recycling 30% of domestic solid waste, which was generated at the high rate of 1kg per capita daily, according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics. Less than 10% of plastic was recycled, and a third of solid waste polluted the environment in unregulated dumps, according to Heinrich Böll Stiftung, a political foundation affiliated with the German Green Party.

Please at least google the
kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

Once again the state of Israel didn't exist until 1948. It was proclaimed as such on 14 May 1948 by Ben Gurion, when he declared "“We hereby declare the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel."
This is what he also said:
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion.
"“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
"“We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do return.”

Well isn't the question how do we guarantee everyone's safety? What about the safety of Palestinians and their children, who represent 44% of the dead? There's a lot of talk about the threat to Israel when what we see in reality is none of their enemies pose the realistic existential threat that you're claiming. Israel completely outguns it's enemies which is why we are seeing the catastrophies that are taking place. I don't see why that would change considering their support form the US etc. I'd also say that by engaging in a peace process we know historically hasn't endangered countries, it actually secured their peace and safety.

We should be able to guarantee countries safety by states following the international laws they signed up to and being held accountable when they don't. It doesn't help Israel or anyone when Israel act with complete disregard to these laws and makes them worthless pieces of paper.

And what would that state look like? How could it be guaranteed they would not be a threat to Israel?

To accept a Palestinian state. You're lecturing everyone on 3000 years of history so surely you should know that?

And what “compromises” were expected of Israel? You don’t think it was anything to do with trying to stop Israel being attacked from all sides?

Interesting how 70% of votes agree that Hamas doesn’t want peace, yet there are a few posters here who will respond day and night with the same old trope - it appears that there’s only one or two individuals who are actually forming any kind of coherent arguments. I mean, I don’t agree with the perspective of @Daftasabroom bit at least they are actually discussing and formulating arguments

Becauae the alternative was "peace offensives" which would put too much diplomatic pressure on Israel to compromise and agree peace since their negotiating partner was willing to compromise..much easier to continue an occupation and ethnic cleansing when your opponent is as violent as you are.

Scirocco · Today 09:42

The occupation and oppression of Palestine did not mean the actions of Hamas and other terrorists were justified. The trauma experienced by Israel did not mean the actions of the Israeli government, IDF and extremists were justified. In both cases, other options existed and people chose these actions. Those people did not and do not lack responsibility for their actions, and they should be held accountable within the established frameworks for doing so.

How very well put.

To those talking about Gazans being responsible for Hamas, do you not know that they were supported, even financially, by Israel?

Or that the last election was in 2004 and to avoid another one, Hamas liquidated the opposition? That they are a brutal dictatorship and democracy has no bearing on the situation?