Hamas don’t want peace

By "demonising", do you mean "expressing concerns and objecting to continuing occupation, oppression, human rights abuses, war crimes and mass killings of innocent men, women and children"? @Feelingathomenow

If people are unable to object to these things, and have to be compelled to be silent and complicit in them, then the struggle against tyranny has already been lost.

By demonising Israel you are stirring up anti semitism These scenes are as a direct result of such rhetoric that is increasingly going up checked.

And it’s not deflection . I’m just keen to see evidence of where you have been so vocal about other wars where women and children have been killed (did you comment in horror on any threads about the atrocities carried out on October 7th?). It’s important to understand your position.

No I’m not going to alter my opinion in response to anti semitic propaganda.
Could you point this out please?

Are you as concerned and vocal about all the women and children dying in all the other wars going on at the moment?
Of course! But why the deflection

i have repeated what I said earlier because it was twisted and misrepresented so thought it was worth restating . No I’m not going to alter my opinion in response to anti semitic propaganda. Are you as concerned and vocal about all the women and children dying in all the other wars going on at the moment?

I am done with your justifications for genocide, we are just revisiting the same stuff you said pages ago you didn't take on board opinions then so unlikely to now. You don't address the opinions raised in the post you are responding to just come back with ww2 analogies

As numerous people have repeatedly said, no one supports civilians being killed. Yet where wars happen it is almost an inevitable consequence. You have to look at whether a war itself is just. Many civilians died in WW2 in trying to stop the spread of tyranny, should we have just allowed the Nazis to march forward and take over the world? Most would argue no. Whilst the death of civilians was a devastating consequence of that war, most would agree the war was just. Of course no one wants anyone to die.

Hamas committed unspeakable atrocities because they are evil and wanted to spark a war that would increase anti semitism throughout the world, the massive increase of anti semitism across the world is proof the poor of thinking have fallen for it book line and sinker. Look at the happenings in Holland overnight. The many people with anti Semitic tendencies have been emboldened by idiots driving round with Palestinian flags or all the marchers waving Palestinian flags. If you think you can separate anti Zionism and anti semitism for the vast majority of people you’re very much mistaken.

Israel has the right to protect itself, Hamas need destroying, Hezbollah need to be destroyed as does every threat to the State of Israel. The Jewish people have undoubtedly been the most persecuted people throughout history, for millions of years, subject to exile after exile. They should be able to defend their homeland By stirring up anti Zionism you are stirring and legitimatising up anti semitism consciously or not.

Israel isn't currently occupying, oppressing and otherwise persecuting the Iranian government or military. Israel is currently occupying, oppressing and persecuting Palestinians, occupying the Golan Heights, committing acts in Palestine and Lebanon which would quickly be condemned as war crimes if any other cointry did them, committing genocidal acts (as per multiple experts in relevant fields), and introducing more legislation to discriminate against and deport citizens of the country whose citizenship is deemed lesser due to their faith or bloodline.

This isn't a brave young country defending itself. This is a confirmed nuclear power with a corrupt government and a history of pretty extreme and aggressive behaviour, behaving in aggressive, expansionist, supremacist ways.

As a woman, I actually felt safer in that respect in Palestine than in Israel, where I experienced and witnessed sexual harassment pretty regularly. I wouldn't feel safe in Palestine now, but that's because nobody is safe in Palestine now.

The Palestinians and Lebanese people being targeted and killed right now are not women-hating tyrants attempting to obliterate the free world. There are women-hating tyrants out there, but none of them will be particularly bothered about the deaths and suffering of Palestinians and Lebanese people other than to consider how it affects their investments and popularity ratings.

I look at it this way. As a woman Which type of society would I rather live in, the freedom of somewhere like Israel or the tyranny of somewhere like Iran?
Not sure what this has to do with anything. You will be hard pressed finding anyone here that would be supportive of the Iranian regime. You are also privileged to be a woman that would feel safe and protected in Israel but that is definitely not the case for those women living in the West Bank.

It is important for the rest of the refer world, especially women we don’t allow women hating tyrants to obliterate the free world.
What about those women being killed in Gaza though? What about those women who are having their tiny babies killed, not getting access to any maternity care, not getting enough provisions to feed their children. Please don't claim Israel are some kind of saviour of women.

And this is why imany definitions of anti semitism include anti Zionism. The two are almost always intertwined.

Ooh why do you think Israel are protective about their space? Might help if there wasn’t so much anti semitism. Might have helped in the Jews hadn’t been exiled from their own lands. After Millennia of persecution the Jewish people need their own land. My expectations of Israel aren’t in the floor. They are far more tolerant than those in the surrounding Arab nations. I look at it this way. As a woman Which type of society would I rather live in, the freedom of somewhere like Israel or the tyranny of somewhere like Iran? Israel is important for the rest of the world too. It is important for the rest of the refer world, especially women we don’t allow women hating tyrants to obliterate the free world.

And this is why being anti-zionist is a protected political stance. Except on mumsnet where people try and get your posts banned and deleted for expressing this view.

Thank you. Zionism isn't Judaism but it's been intertwined so that we cannot be critical of the Zionist movement / government as it will be considered Anti Semitic.

Have a read will you @Comedycook

Thank you for sharing that, @LoremIpsumCici

It's strange how you expect Palestinians to take responsibility for just about everything but your expectations of Israel are on the floor.

Just ignore the fact that Israel are illegal occupiers, operating military blockades and apartheid, it's not like it's an important feature of the decades long struggles between Israel and Palestine.

For those confused on Zionism, I present the Jerusalem Program. It is a requirement to agree to the Jerusalem Program to be a Zionist. (latest April 2023 resolution affirms this “Whereas the World Zionist Organization requires every member of the Zionist movement to accept the Jerusalem Program;”)

“THE JERUSALEM PROGRAM IS THE OFFICIAL PLATFORM OF THE WORLD ZIONIST ORGANIZATION AND THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT
Zionism, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, brought about the establishment of the State of Israel and views a Jewish, Zionist, democratic, and secure State of Israel to be the expression of the common responsibility of the Jewish people for its continuity and future.

The foundations of Zionism are:
The unity of the Jewish people, its bond to its historic homeland Eretz Yisrael, and the centrality of the State of Israel and Jerusalem, its capital, in the life of the nation.

Aliyah to Israel from all countries and the effective integration of all immigrants into Israeli society.

Strengthening Israel as a Jewish, Zionist, and democratic state and shaping it as an exemplary society with a unique moral and spiritual character, marked by mutual respect for the multi-faceted Jewish people, rooted in the vision of the prophets, striving for peace and contributing to the betterment of the world.

Ensuring the future and the distinctiveness of the Jewish people by furthering Jewish, Hebrew, and Zionist education, fostering spiritual and cultural values, and teaching Hebrew as the national language.

Nurturing mutual Jewish responsibility, defending the rights of Jews as individuals and as a nation, representing the national Zionist interests of the Jewish people, and struggling against all manifestations of anti-Semitism.

Settling the country as an expression of practical Zionism.”

The last may be a surprise to some posters who have said the settler principle is not Zionist, but extremist. Settlement is and always has been part of Zionism.

But wait there is more.
The most recently adopted resolution from the April 2023 Extraordinary Zionist World Congress also affirms the following principle:

“Zionism is a movement that defends the basic principles of justice, equality and democracy and rejects discrimination on the grounds of origin, nationality or race or gender or sexual orientation, and committed to the founding document of the State of Israel, the Declaration of Independence.”

Note the absence of religion. Zionism allows discrimination on the basis of religion as a founding principle of the State of Israel. Anyone not Jewish can be discriminated against.

The problem I have as a Jewish woman with Zionism is that it is my opinion that you can’t have a modern democratic state with justice and equality while allowing discrimination on the basis of religion. It is an oxymoron as much as when countries claimed to be modern democracies while discriminating on the basis of sex against we women.

source: https://www.wzo.org.il/en/

Do you really need another list of the war crimes, human rights abuses and other heinous acts documented to have been carried out by, incited by and approved by the Israeli government and IDF?

If another country were responsible for these acts against your own country, your own loved ones, would you genuinely, hand on heart, be ok with that?

Of course that’s what they are doing. What else are you accusing them of?

Or the result of oppression and persecution of the Jews for thousands of years by many cultures especially the Arabs. This particular time it was because Hamas decided to target men women and children to commit acts of torture, rape , murder and kidnap. This war is the fault of the those people.,

There is no global poll on how many of us support Zionism.
Which country and which poll are you (ab)using as representative of all of us the world over?

This. Same old, same old.

But loads of times you have wrongly equated the IDF to Hamas…
Me? When?
I know the IDF are not a terrorist organisation but some of their actions are definitely terrorising innocent civilians.

Don’t worry, we know it’s the one where Israel can be constantly attacked but can never defend.
No one has an issue with Israel defending but that's not what they're doing.

Israel is a country which claims to have democratic processes and government. Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation and is not in itself a country, although the organisation has kept a hold on power in part of Palestine (through rather questionable methods including the prevention of democratic elections). People should hold a supposedly democratic country to a higher standard than is expected from a proscribed terrorist organisation.

The conduct of the IDF has been reprehensible enough that there are indeed similarities in conduct between it and violent paramilitary and terrorist forces, in terms of acts carried out. It is tragic that any official military force has become so detached from the principles and laws to which it was meant to adhere, in order to protect others. Former soldiers I know are horrified by and ashamed of what the IDF has become. These are people who used to feel a sense of pride about their service and their contribution to keeping people safe in a country they loved. They don't recognise that in the force operating today.

But loads of times you have wrongly equated the IDF to Hamas… so which one is it?

Don’t worry, we know it’s the one where Israel can be constantly attacked but can never defend.

Complete total garbage. What's happening now is the DIRECT result of over 100 years of western imperialism, Zionist colonialism, ethnic cleansing and genocide.

I recall people did try. There were efforts to prevent them taking power, efforts to resist them and efforts to seek external help. Participating in such activities dramatically shortened people's life expectancies, and had a tendency to lead to rather unpleasant 'accidents'. And there was little interest from elsewhere in getting involved when Netanyahu et al were propping them up along with Iran. Hamas were useful to Netanyahu and his friends, and useful to Iran, so the international community left Palestinians to suffer, knowing they did not have the resources to challenge Hamas meaningfully - they couldn't engage in meaningful political debates and processes, they couldn't launch an uprising, they couldn't really do very much about a government that held on to power by not holding elections and governing through fear. A politician once said "We only have to win once" - and this is an example of how that works out.