How many more will Israel kill?

I know. It's the attempt to destroy in part or in whole a group of people. I know what genocide is. We can go back and forth on whether or not Gaza is suffering a genocide, I'm not debating that here.

It's the equating of the Holocaust with the war in Gaza that I cannot bear. Civilians are being bombed yes. I don't want to minimise the awfulness of that. But it is not the same as people being put on trains and shipped to their deaths. Israel is not putting thousands of people in concentration camps and starving them, forcing them to work, shaving their heads, stealing their possessions and then killing them on an industrial scale. Civilians are not being specifically targeted, they are caught in the crossfire.

I think I'll have to bow out now. Hope you have a good evening.

If cruelty goes unchecked, it escalates. We are witnessing this on a daily basis.

Who is this poster?
To say they are the same is to trivialize the systematic murder of 6 million people.
I will say it again. Genocide isn't about numbers. By the way, 12 millions died in the Holocaust.
My great aunt was lucky to survive Auschwitz and the Death March. Whilst on the march, she realised she had forgotten the diary she had written ( in secret to bear witness) and went back to get it.
So no, I would never ever trivialize the Holocaust.

Genocide isn't defined by figures though. Perhaps if you feel so strongly that it isn't equivalent you could say why without saying the numbers aren't enough.

It's not about numbers. It's about trying to wipe out a population. That's what Israel seems to be attempting. I'm astounded at their awful cruelty. I really am.

Omg.
Again with the straw man!
I DO see similarities. Some of the rhetoric from Israeli right wing, for example.

I am objecting to the poster who said Israel are doing exactly what was done to them. I am objecting to drawing an equivalence between the Holocaust and the current conflict. They are NOT THE SAME!

To say they are the same is to trivialize the systematic murder of 6 million people.

6 million is not the same as 50k. Even 100k. It's not the same.

Language matters.

@dairydebris

You struggle to see the similarity?
GENOCIDE
That's the similarity.

@dairydebris please check your history before you use it justify the genocide in Gaza and the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.

The world, at least The Allies, fought a war that cost thousands of lives to end the nazi regime. They didn't 'do nothing'.

This is categorically untrue.

The British and French came to the aid of Poland after they were invaded by Germany. After the French surrender there were very significant French factions who actively supported the Nazis. The Nazis had signalled their intent well before the invasion of Poland and the European allies had done little or nothing to prevent it. Fascism was a mainstream political ideology across Europe, it wasn't just Hitler and Mussolini (who hated each other). If anything the Nazis were at best left alone, but to some extent enabled.

Stalin and the Soviets signed a non-aggression and trade pact with the Nazis that directly supported the war in western Europe and North Africa.

The Americans remained steadfastly neutral - or at least no direct action - until Pearl Harbor, and even then it was Hitler who declared war on the USA.

The European allies reaction to the Nazis was due to existential necessity not some kind moral crusade.

I just saw a video of hundreds if not thousands of people trying to access bread in Gaza. There is no food. Many were crying and screaming. Little children and their mothers. Can you imagine the despair? I won't share it because it upset me, and it would upset the posters who care about human rights and what the people of Gaza are going through.

A fully designed situation, not a famine or a shortage. It's unforgiveable.

You mean the Palestinian hostages held by Israel? Or do you mean all hostages?

I bow out because all your posts do is to voice your opinion without providing any unbiased and verified facts to back it up. But before I do, let's clarify some points:
And I believe Starmer recently restricted some arms sales? And Israel is allowing aid in, although arguably not enough. But you're factually incorrect in what you're saying.
He banned 30 companies out of 300 ( google it). The UK is not the main provider of weapons as you well know it. The USA are.
Regarding aid, the Israeli government has allowed 536 lorries in 20 days in Northern Gaza, according to UNICEF) which is the number which go in on a daily basis. If I am factually incorrect, please provide evidence to support your views.
Gaza has no way to defend itself? Are you kidding me? They have no guns? No rocket launchers? No tunnels that could be used to shelter women and children? You know full well they have all these things. The truth is Hamas uses all their resources to protect its leadership and attack Israel, and none of its resources to protect its civilians.
It's true that the Palestinian civilians have no way to defend themselves. Civilians tend not to have arms. They're caught between Hamas ( their government who should be protecting them ) and the IDF who are protecting Israel. Do you think the responsibility lies only with Israel to protect Gazan civilians?
The IDF is vastly superior in term of weapons. A gun or a rocket is no match against the USA military might which supplies Israel.
Both Hamas and the IDF are two faces of the same coin, regarding the Palestinian civilians. The difference is that one is a terrorist organisation; the other the "most moral army in the world".
You say Gaza isn't a nation? If it isn't a nation it can't be suffering genocide. I'm surprised to hear you think this but OK.
I suggest you look up the definition of genocide. It appears that you do not understand it.
Hostage lives worth to Netanyahu? Not enough. I believe he is most likely guilty of war crimes and history will look very unkindly on him. I think he also should take some responsibility for the security failures of 7 October.
At least, we agree on something.
It's not just my opinion that the Holocaust and the current war are not equivalent. It's an actual fact. How anyone can compare the 2 and come up with equivalence is beyond me.
Amongst many other points, millions of Jews were specifically targeted for deportation and murdered. Gazan civilians, whole families are not being forced onto a train at gunpoint then gassed to death or forced to work to death.
Again provide facts ( saying it's a fact doesn't make it one) to back up your opinion.
What happened in Bosnia and Rwanda were genocides. Genocides are not defined by the methods used but by the intent.

I guess if I were to simplify a horribly long, complex, fraught conflict such as this, in my mind there is a hierarchy of baddies and it goes like this-

Hamas

Current Israeli government

Innocent civilians on both sides.

I think this in a nutshell is why I support Israel's right to wage war on Hamas. I think it's right and good to critique the conduct of the war, but I support their basic aim to get rid of Hamas.

Anytime I feel absolutely no hope I think about Rwanda. I believe in the absence of evil regimes normal people can sort this.

@dairydebris I absolutely believe that the members of Hamas bear some responsibility for the subsequent atrocities - they must have been aware of what sort of reaction would come, and of the people making the decisions about whether to place any value on Palestinian lives (the Israeli government were never likely to opt for a measured response). For whatever reason, they chose for the slaughter to start at that point, knowing it was condemning Palestinians to death. But Israeli forces, the government and its supporters are also very much responsible for their decisions - they had options, better options, but chose this. They are responsible for their choices, and that is what so many people refuse to acknowledge or accept. They could have been better than this - shown respect for international law, prevented thousands of civilian deaths, reached a ceasefire agreement to bring hostages back home and start a peace process to put an end to this cycle of hatred and violence and to begin the healing for everyone. Instead, they have chosen to escalate the violence and terror, commit horrendous atrocities (that they didn't have to do - they chose to do!), and move further away from a peaceful resolution. What I encounter, repeatedly, is that people minimise and excuse behaviour from the IDF and theur supporters, while harshly condemning Palestinians for much less.

It's not just my opinion that the Holocaust and the current war are not equivalent. It's an actual fact. How anyone can compare the 2 and come up with equivalence is beyond me.
Amongst many other points, millions of Jews were specifically targeted for deportation and murdered. Gazan civilians, whole families are not being forced onto a train at gunpoint then gassed to death or forced to work to death. Gazan civilians are caught between 2 opposed ideologies who care little about their lives. It's awful, but it's not the same

Agree totally.

Thanks, some of these sentiments expressed indeed sound absolutely awful, in particular blaming parents for the death of a child, and comparing Palestinian children to animals. I haven't seen any of that on here ( although I have on other forums sadly, so I know they're out there. )

However I do think there's a meaningful difference between-
Nah- it's Hamas' fault and-
The responsibility for these Palestinan children's death lies at least partly with Hamas. ( which would be my position )

What I absolutely cannot believe keeps getting trotted out on here is that the current war is the equivalent to the Holocaust.

There's posters on here saying this, and then in same post accusing me of minimizing Palestinian death. The cognitive dissonance is unbelievable.

Going to war is not 'doing nothing'.

Again, straw man. I don't think starting a war against Israel is sensible, I said the opposite. And I believe Starmer recently restricted some arms sales? And Israel is allowing aid in, although arguably not enough. But you're factually incorrect in what you're saying.

Gaza has no way to defend itself? Are you kidding me? They have no guns? No rocket launchers? No tunnels that could be used to shelter women and children? You know full well they have all these things. The truth is Hamas uses all their resources to protect its leadership and attack Israel, and none of its resources to protect its civilians.
It's true that the Palestinian civilians have no way to defend themselves. Civilians tend not to have arms. They're caught between Hamas ( their government who should be protecting them ) and the IDF who are protecting Israel. Do you think the responsibility lies only with Israel to protect Gazan civilians?

You say Gaza isn't a nation? If it isn't a nation it can't be suffering genocide. I'm surprised to hear you think this but OK.

Hostage lives worth to Netanyahu? Not enough. I believe he is most likely guilty of war crimes and history will look very unkindly on him. I think he also should take some responsibility for the security failures of 7 October.

It's not just my opinion that the Holocaust and the current war are not equivalent. It's an actual fact. How anyone can compare the 2 and come up with equivalence is beyond me.
Amongst many other points, millions of Jews were specifically targeted for deportation and murdered. Gazan civilians, whole families are not being forced onto a train at gunpoint then gassed to death or forced to work to death. Gazan civilians are caught between 2 opposed ideologies who care little about their lives. It's awful, but it's not the same.

This

Sadly, there are indeed people who are not that concerned about Palestinian children or Muslim children, and whose responses include: celebration of successful military action with no interest in the dead or injured children; flat-out "nah, you're lying" (actually had that one myself about a child of a family friend who was scarred for life by an Israeli attack); "it's faked"; shrugging it off as "collateral damage"; blaming children's parents for not keeping them safe; "nah, it's Hamas's fault"; "yes it's very sad but that's life" and similar dismissive comments including direct comparisons with the deaths of animals and stating that a Palestinian child's life is not worth the same as an Israeli child or a 'Western' child. I've been told we (Muslims) love our children less than non-Muslims. Can you imagine telling people who have lost children that they didn't love them as much as other people would? Because that's just some of the cruelty that Muslims and Palestinians receive online from people who support the current Israeli military action.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

The world, at least The Allies, fought a war that cost thousands of lives to end the nazi regime. They didn't 'do nothing'. They fought a war against an evil regime.
The Allies were aware of the camps. That's what i meant "by doing nothing".
What the Allies Knew - The Holocaust
What do you want the world to 'do' to stop the slaughter in Gaza? Start a war on Israel? Can't you see how crazy that is?
Nobody but you think that starting a war with Israel is the solution here. An embargo on the sale of armement and allowing aid in would be a start.
each nation that makes war on another does it-
There lies the problem. Gaza isn't a nation and has no means to defend itself. The IDF are shooting fish in a barrel. Don't they have the right to self defense?
What are those hostage lives worth to Hamas?
What are those hostage lives worth to Netanyahu?
What happening in Gaza is awful enough without calling false equivalence.
This is your opinion, nothing else.
Finally, I will answer to any poster any time I want. This is called freedom of speech.

I think they do.

And you don't have to be cheering on children's deaths to be excusing them on these threads which imo is pretty much the same thing for eg a

1. Hamas started it.

2 Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields so it's not the IDf's fault

3 it's anti semitic to call Israel out on anything at all.

4 babies were burned in ovens on October 7th

5 it's just a popular social media phase to support Palestine.

6 It is not a genocide because.there are still Palestinians left.

7 there was a ceasefire before October 7th

8 Just give the hostages back and it will all be over.

9 it's Palestinians own fault because they voted Hamas in.

Seriously. Do you think there is a single poster on here who isn't horrified by every single death of a child? It's mumsnet ffs. We're a bunch of middle aged women with kids who've mostly never been directly involved in a war...

Do you imagine there's a set of pro Israeli mums sitting about gleefully celebrating every time a kid gets buried under the rubble or gets their legs blown off?

There isn't.

And do you have a way of seeing into the future that lets you know that another 5.9 million approx Palestinians are going to die? No. You don't.

Your posts make no sense.

100% agree.

Sometimes I don't even know why I bother responding. Again, you're setting me up with straw man arguments that I have to shut down first before we can actually discuss anything. But here we go-
The world, at least The Allies, fought a war that cost thousands of lives to end the nazi regime. They didn't 'do nothing'. They fought a war against an evil regime.
What do you want the world to 'do' to stop the slaughter in Gaza? Start a war on Israel? Can't you see how crazy that is?
I have never, ever minimised Palestinian death. All human life in valuable. Each Palestinian civilian life is worth as much as each Israeli life, each British life, each Nigerian life.
However, Israel has declared war on Hamas. So yes, to the IDF each Hamas life is worth less than Israeli life. It's war. That's how it works. Each tries to kill the other. Each dehumanized the other to a certain extent because otherwise soldiers couldn't do what they do. It's awful, but each nation that makes war on another does it- NOT JUST THE ISRAELIS.
What are those hostage lives worth to Hamas?

Calling an equivalence between the Holocaust and the current war in Gaza is absolutely appalling. I can't believe its still happening. That's what I'm trying to correct.

Whats happening in Gaza is awful enough without calling false equivalence.

Please don't bother responding unless you are specifically rebutting my points.

Oh I can completely see that

Israeli has now murdered more children in a single year than in a year any recent conflict.

The fact alone that this does not horrify posters here as well as world leaders means that those potential deaths WILL be realised.