How many more will Israel kill?

I found this article quite balanced on it

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/24128715/israel-palestine-conflict-settler-colonialism-zionism-history-debate

No one! There are arguments for and against on both sides with different definitions used, to me it seems to come down to semantics.

Who in your view is qualified?

It is very much debated academically whether it is or not, with no definitive answer on it, so I am not sure anyone here is qualified to determine if it is or isn't.

In fairness you responded to their post which contained the question - if this isn't fascism what is it? So maybe you could answer that since you responded to the post. What is that image to you?

@Limesodaagain I do get it I really do but after years of protest at the actions of Israel, and in particular since the 7/10 atrocity, the world seems to be walking into the same trap.

It's absolutely true that there are other abuses of the like currently being undertaken by Israel, but I can't think of any in recent memory that threatened to take the whole world with it.

And you are avoiding the questions.

Lets assume for a moment that it is fascism, for the sake of argument. Its obviously NOT 1930s. Its 2020s. Say when you mean. Be accurate. Don't be needlessly offensive. You know its offensive. You know it falls under the international definition of antisemitism. Its grotesque and serves only to create division and argument and upset. Why do you want to upset people? Why do you want to detract from your own argument?

Israel is not a western imperial project. This is such nonsense and betrays a complete misunderstanding of the history - how many times have we gone over this? . If that's your starting point, which you claim to have thought long and hard about there is really no point.

It should be possible to make your points very convincingly without reference to the Holocaust or causing offence to Jewish people.
There are posters who do this very successfully

I think we need to be careful about the language we use .
There are Jewish people living in this country who are deeply affected by this sort of rhetoric and are worried about the rise in anti semitism.

https://x.com/HeidiBachram/status/1850957469326938520

I've actually thought long and hard before posting that. But, I really do think there are many parallels, across the world, with the 1930s and particularly right now with Israel. I think it's hugely disturbing for all those in the region.

I fully realize that much is rooted in European imperial and colonial geopolitics, from the pogroms, the rise of nationalism and communism, WW1, WW2 and of course the Holocaust.

All the ingredients have been there for years, decades , arguably since the 19thc.

Israel is a western imperial colonial project. The whys and wherefores are obviously complex, but whichever way you look it, the creation of Israel is based on the displacement of the existing Arab population, the Palestinians. Understandably they didn't agree to being forcibly displaced and still harbor massive resentment because of it.

From day one Israel has taken every opportunity to expand into Palestinian land. Overt racism and colonisation along with apartheid has pushed Israel increasingly to the right.

The persecution of a people based purely on ethnicity, the expansionism, the genocide, the ethnic cleansing. The support from states that should know better. The enabling, appeasement and apologists. It all echos 1930s Europe. The actions of the current Israel government are those of an ultra right wing nationalist government.

It isn't lazy, offensive, inaccurate & ahistorical to make comparisons with 1930s fascism, it's absolutely terrifying and has the potential to drag the whole world into war.

We have to face up to this and we must learn lessons from the past, however unpalatable that may be.

@SharonEllis @Limesodaagain

Is it also anti semetic when the comparisons to 1930s facism is made by Israeli Jewish political scientists? Or the Holocaust survivors who compare it to their experiences? Or when Smotrich refers to himself as a fascist?
People have explained their reasons for the comparison - the dehumanisation of the Palestinians, detaining them in camp, they are numbering them, prominent settlers supported by the government talk of how they "all need to be killed". Perhaps instead of just shutting it down by saying any mention of the similarities between the current Israeli regime and 1930s facism is antisemitic you could actually argue against the point instead of telling people what they can't say by trying to suggest they're being antisemitic when they've done nothing of the sort.

@Daftasabroom
It undermines your legitimate points about the actions of the Israeli government when you make comparisons to 1930’s Nazi Germany ( and talk of lebensraum etc)
There have been any number of events in the world that you could use as comparison but to reference the Holocaust is deeply offensive to people who might otherwise agree with some of your points.
Please do not refer ( even obliquely ) to the Holocaust when you are criticising the Israeli government. It does come across as very anti semitic and doesn’t help your argument.

This is a deliberately offensive thing to say & you know is not true. What are you trying to achieve by making such a comparison ? Say what you mean about specific things you object to about the Israeli government. But its lazy, offensive, inaccurate & ahistorical to make comparisons with 1930s fascism.

A couple of links about Palestinians held by Israel.

http://www.btselem.org/statistics/detainees_and_prisoners

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-report-palestinian-detainees-held-arbitrarily-and-secretly-subjected

Someone earlier described people held by Israel as 'terrorists and criminals'. According to the IPS's own figures, the majority of Palestinians held by them have not been convicted of a crime. However, the clever use of terminology and propaganda is used to imply guilt. Even the term 'detainee' implies guilt, jumping straight past the important principles of justice such as "innocent until proven guilty" to an assumption of guilt on the basis of being a Palestinian imprisoned by Israel. Two of the primary reasons for having large numbers of Palestinians imprisoned in such circumstances are: firstly, for hostage negotiations; and secondly, to encourage 'compliance' out of fear of what could happen to loved ones who have been taken away and locked away by Israeli forces. Both of these reasons mean that the term hostage is applicable to them, too.

Interlaken I’ve concluded that sadly there are quite a few people who are ok with this genocide. You see it justified on here all the time.

I believe it’s a waste of time and energy to engage with them. How do you get through to people who have such very different values regarding the sanctity of human life?

Genocide and collective punishment is wrong and illegal, do you think some of the posters here care that’s Israel is committing genocide? I believe they don’t give a shit.

All the evidence suggests that once al the hostages are returned Israel will escalate the rate of genocide.

That leads me to think that you are either ok with the genocide of Palestinians, or you you don’t want to accept the stated intentions of the Israeli government.

Do you think that October 7th (disgusting, illegal and murderous) merits genocide and the confiscation of land as a response?

They need to give the hostages back.

You aren't aware of the many people, including children, currently held in prison under 'administrative detention', who have not been charged with any crime, let alone tried or convicted? Or the people abducted and held in detention centres, without charge, but subjected to treatment ranging from the sonewhat inhumane right through to torture and rape? Or the people, including children, serving extremely long sentences entirely disproportionate to the crimes of which they were convicted by less-than-impartial legal processes. Actual children being tried in military courts, with 'evidence' obtained under torture considered admissible and legal representation and defence for defendants considered unimportant?

That must be nice, not to know about those things.

This attitude (or maybe genuine ignorance?) is depressing at this stage of the conflict.

@Daftasabroom

"You mean the Palestinian hostages held by Israel? Or do you mean all hostages?"

The hostages taken from Israel on 7 October. I'm not aware of any Palestinian hostages, terrorists and criminals that are in prison yes, but not hostages.