"You see us burning, you stay silent..."

These events have been accepted as bad but necessary events within the laws of war
These events are not now within the laws of war.

It’s all down to geopolitics.
There is a lot of evidence to suggest that the atomic bombs dropped on Japan in 1945 were less about defeating Japan (which was already on its way to being defeated) and more about showing the USSR, which after VE Day was becoming increasingly more difficult for the USA to work with, that the USA had an atomic bomb.

If those bombs hadn't been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki men like my father (a Japanese POW brutalised for over 4 years) would have died alongside all other POWs
So to save them 200,000 innocent civilians had to die? Why were their lives worth so much less? I'm sorry I don't get this argument to justify the atomic bomb.

International Humanitarian laws were established after these events to protect ALL innocent civilians not just those on the winning side.

The UN peacekeeping force has been anything but as Hezbollah constantly fired rockets into northern Israel.

If those bombs hadn't been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki men like my father (a Japanese POW brutalised for over 4 years) would have died alongside all other POWs
The Allies bombed Dresden to pieces causing huge loss of civilian life before the war with Germany could come to an end. Dresden was the city where my mother was born and from where my grandmother was sent to a concentration camp.
Thank G-d the Germans and Japanese were finally defeated. I can only hope that Hamas and Hezbollah (aka Iranian proxies) are also defeated and Israelis and Palestinians can one day live in peace as we all do with Germany and Japan.

Scirroco, How would anyone remove Hamas? Without putting USA / UK boots on the ground? Egypt, Gazas closest neigbour is terrified of them. Lebenon together with UN support has been trying to get rid of very similar Hezbollah for decades with no success.

I think the world is secretly holding out for regime change to come from within Gaza itself.

Auvergne,

Law is set by precedents. How do you see the UK Firebombing of Dresden and Hamburg. The allied destruction of Hiroshima with an A bomb? All indiscriminate targeting of civilian centres. Blockades also prevented food and aid reaching civilians.

These events have been accepted as bad but necessary events within the laws of war. And they have to some extent set the precedent here.

are we getting some consensus here today between you me UN, UK, USA, Arab States (other than Iran) and even Israel? Remove Hamas to achieve peace.

The law of right to self defence is the actual law enabling Israel to conduct the war as they are. It's why the UK, USA, Europe are assisting them. Israel breaking this law - I don't know it is a bit grey. Bending it? yes i think so.
The trouble with this argument is that it totally ignores the fact that the Israeli government has deliberately contravene the rules of war, rules they have signed up to.
It isn't a grey area and they are not bending them. They are using unlawful methods in the name of self-defence ( Not allowing humanitarian aid in/ use of phosphorus bombs, indiscriminate bombings and so on).
It's why the UK, USA, Europe are assisting them.
Sorry but it is about geopolitics.

Dear Scirocco,

Thank you for conversing with me. I don't mean to argue but do you mind if I dispute some of what you said. I'm backing everything up with references ...

"The majority of people in Gaza did not choose Hamas. Yet they have been condemned to death and suffering despite that. If the world actually wants to help Palestinians, it needs to act like it."
Wrong. It's a fact that the people in Gaza voted for Hamas. They are terrorists. This was a stupid thing to do and stupid things have consequences. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election

"And anyone who at this point dismisses the civilian deaths in Gaza as simply 'collateral' must be well aware of how heartless that is"
you seem to be saying I am heartless? I'm looking at ways to stop the war. War is heartless. It should be a last resort. After diplomacy. Civilians usually bear the brunt. We all need to be mindful about starting wars or encouraging them or glorifying war / terrorism. Every war has massive collateral damage aka civilian suffering. My view ... stop wars - more talking and more listening.

"...generally speaking, freeing innocent people is not achieved by committing war crimes against them or killing large numbers of them"
Wrong. Generally speaking ... (unfortunately but factually) freeing countries is usually achieved by killing large numbers of them. Hiroshima, Nakasaki, Dresden, Hamburg. WW1 was the biggest cause of civilian deaths the world has ever experienced. Not condoning this - just stating the sad reality of war. Freedom of Kuwait, regime change in Iraq, Bosnia, Argentina (Falklands) also were achieved after killing large numbers of people. It would be hypocritical to ignore our actions previously.

Dulra, "The majority of the wars you're referencing are before the Geneva Convention. There are now laws which dictate how you can conduct your war and Israel are breaking many of them.
Bosnia was a genocide so not sure why you think that's a model to follow"

This is awkward ....... I quoted 9 wars. only 3 were before the Geneva convention.

The law of right to self defence is the actual law enabling Israel to conduct the war as they are. It's why the UK, USA, Europe are assisting them. Israel breaking this law - I don't know it is a bit grey. Bending it? yes i think so.

Bosnia was a genocide. I was clearly talking about the UK and Nato response to that genocide and the actions taken that stopped it and prevented it carrying on that eventually achieved peace. This is obviously quite relevant.

Scirroco,

If you live in UK, USA, Europe you are in "a country doesn't get a free pass to destroy another country or group of people however they want". Trident submarine is on station permanently to carry out Genocide at the request of your elected Government. I'm just pointing out that it is hypocritical to expect Israel to defend themselves in a different manner to how we do it.

UK, USA, UN Europe, will not get involved again without regime change. Hamas, and their predecessors have a reputation for murdering all the peacekeepers supplied previously by us. Being democracies Peace keepers coming home in body bags loses elections. Little boy cried wolf.

"Join the world... we want to help you comes across as rather patronising and with a bit of a colonial vibe to it. " Not my intention - merely answering the question 'What needs to happen to end the suffering?" Talking is the solution here. But not with Hamas. It's not me saying this - it's what the whole World is saying.

The majority of the wars you're referencing are before the Geneva Convention. There are now laws which dictate how you can conduct your war and Israel are breaking many of them.

Bosnia was a genocide so not sure why you think that's a model to follow

i dont think that's right. I think Israel just wants to remove the ability for Palestine to be able to do this in the future. And with this ability (Hamas) being embedded in civilian areas civilian casualties is collateral.

This is how Conflicts usually end. Topical that it is Trafalgar day.... The battle of Trafalgar didn't lead to GB to occupy murder eradicate France and Spain. It actually stopped the conflict as it removed the ability of France and Spain to offensively attack us. Similar Spannish Armarda, WW1 (although failed to enforce treaty of Versailles), WW2, Falklands, Iraq, Syria, Lybia, Bosnia conflicts. Regime change is quite a common solution especially when it involves a dictatorship (Hamas).

Auvergne,

"Indeed free Palestine from Hamas and the Israeli government"

Comment of the day - succinct and concise

"A campaign of mass murder, torture, the eradication of a society, occupation and annexation has been chosen by the Israeli government. That is not justice or liberation. It's vengeance, hate and a whole bunch of war crimes."

Your words not mine but you must admit this began on October the 7th and was a direct response to Palestinian Genocidal attack of October the 7th.

I agree Israel's response is incredibly heavy handed but the rules of this conflict were set by the Palestinians on October 7th. it's not up to us to decide the proper response - it is Israel's choice to respond how they wish. Like it or not that is the law of war.

You and I only exist today in the West in relative peace due to the massive genocidal deterrent that we have sitting at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean. Our Prime Minister has instructed the Royal Navy Trident Commander to genocide Russia in the event of an attack. Other branches of HM Forces pocess chemical and biological weapons for the same purpose. It is hypocritical of us in the West (in Nato) to condemn heavy handed military responses when our existence is based on Genocide.

Palestine - talk to the world, we want top help you. We can stop this today. Two state solution? It's on the table. 1. Give back Hostages 2. Renounce violence.

It's not actually occupation, vengeance, hate that Israel requires. Gaza had a great deal of increasing autonomy before October 7th. Hammas is the problem here. The world is unanimous in this - Hammas need to go and then the World will talk. Palestinians listen to what the World is saying - join the World, we want to help you

I think the Palestinians are too busy trying to stay alive to do what you expect them to . Foraging for food and water, trying to find safety from the indiscriminate bombings, watching their loved ones dying of their wounds or diseases because there are no meds takes it out of you, after a while.
It's like spoilt children who just need to accept that the Grown Ups are in charge.
The trouble with the grown ups is that they are the abusers.
Indeed free Palestine from Hamas and the Israeli government.