Hamas leader Sinwar dead

Correct but the civilians do bear the consequences of the manner in which how both Hamas and Israel fight the conflict.

Your position is that the manner in which the conflict is fought and causing civilian casualties is entirely down to Israel whereas logically it is down to both sides.

Civilians don’t bear the responsibility for how Hamas has conducted itself

And you seem to think Israel can't defeat Hamas because it can't do it perfectly. Its very difficult to fight guerrillas who don't care about their own people. Nowhere in that post do you entertain the dea that Hamas bears responsibility for the way it has chosen to fight this war.

@1dayatatime Perfection is the enemy of good. By default your logic would mean that you should no good thing because it’s not possible to do every good thing imaginable in the entire world.
You assuming that Israel is a force for good but Israel has committed more atrocities against children than Hamas. It has done so deliberately even though it’s debatable if this carnage was the primary intent. It was entirely foreseeable that the civilian casualties would be on this scale but Israel has gone ahead anyway with a full knowledge of the consequences. Remember we are talking about people burnt alive, amputations without anaesthetic, this is not just a numbers game. Orphans , life changing injuries. But forgive me for being part of the emotionally driven left….

Rather than comparing to WW2 or the Ukraine war, a better analogy is that blowing up an entire school to kill a school shooter.

@Kindatired

"We should not be buying solar panels made with slave labour and we should not be trading with a country that is deliberately killing vast numbers of civilians on the pretext of self defence.
Your objections sounds like whataboutery though followed by a thinly veiled accusation of anti-semitism. Israel has just killed more than 42000 people o the pretext of self defence following an attack that left 1200 people dead. The plight of the Uigars does not change this in any way.

You raise a number of points.

Firstly my intention was not whataboutery but rather that if the EU in the pursuit of economic self interest doesn't care about Uighar concentration camps making solar panels then logically they shouldn't care about a trade embargo with Israel either.

But if the EU were to put aside economic self interest in applying sanctions to Israel then it must be other factors (including anti semitism) instead.

Secondly your point on the difference in Palestinian vs Israeli deaths. This is a common assumption amongst the emotionally driven left that assumes that in any conflict between a strong party and a weaker party then sympathy must always go to the weaker side regardless of circumstances.

So if disparity in casualties is your metric of deciding sympathies then in your opinion:

Japan inflicted 2400 US casualties at Pearl Harbour- the subsequent retaliation by the US saw between 2.6 and 3.1 million Japanese deaths including 200k in the atomic bomb attacks. Who was in the wrong in this conflict?

Ukraine has suffered 31,000 casualties compared to Russia suffering over 70,000 casualties. Who is in the wrong in this conflict?

We should not be buying solar panels made with slave labour and we should not be trading with a country that is deliberately killing vast numbers of civilians on the pretext of self defence.
Your objections sounds like whataboutery though followed by a thinly veiled accusation of anti-semitism. Israel has just killed more than 42000 people o the pretext of self defence following an attack that left 1200 people dead. The plight of the Uigars does not change this in any way.

Thank you for posting, that's appalling, I didn't know that about solar panels.

@Kindatired

"The EU-Israel trade agreement is on next months EU foreign affairs committee agenda and for a lot of Europeans, Israeli goods are as popular as blood diamonds."

95% of the world's solar panels are made using components from Uighur Muslim slave labour camps in China and the EU doesn't seem to give a crap about that.

Of course other factors may be included as to why Israel should be punished and not China.

www.unison.org.uk/content/uploads/2022/08/Clean-dirty-energy-1.pdf

Donations are used to give education to 300,000 students every year, allowing them to have a literacy rate of 99% and go on to further education. Donations are used to fund health centres that provide vital services for one million people. They provide psychological help in schools for the children who have lived through multiple Israeli bombardments. They allow food assistance to be given to over 1 million people. They provide livelihood opportunities to help Palestinians help themselves in the future. They provide social services. They provide shelter.

Don't downplay the importance of donations and the positive impact they have had on the lives of so many Palestinians who have been living under Israeli blockade that has severely impacted daily life and restricted their human rights.

Yeah, you don't like my post much do you @SharonEllis ?

Nasty & uncalled for to imply people here gave donations to Hamas.

@Newbutoldfather
You make a good point but Israel isn’t sitting over some natural resource. And if the tech industry falters, the tax base will go with it. The world is watching people being burned alive and children being shot in the head. The EU-Israel trade agreement is on next months EU foreign affairs committee agenda and for a lot of Europeans, Israeli goods are as popular as blood diamonds.

It was in a list of a variety of factors.

You misunderstand me.

I'm saying that there's no point in declaring what the best solution would be as if you could make decisions for everyone. Sure, it would be easier to solve that way - but that isn't the reality for anyone.

The Israeli government doesn't control what the Palestinian leadership do.

The Palestinian leadership don't control what the Israeli government do.

The UK and US government don't control what the Israeli government, the Palestinian leadership, Hezbollah or the Iranian leadership do.

Each actor can only control what they themselves do - and try to judge what others might to do in response - and how likely each response is - and from that what the different outcomes might be.

@Kindatired ,

‘Chips can be made in much safer places that are not engaged in ethnic cleansing. Americans would prefer to make their own chips. Also the Israeli ingenuity is exceptional but there’s a pit of a whiff about the Israeli IT sector- Pegasus spyware, booby trapped pagers, the tech and defence industries are closely aligned and there will be other options . Yes, in the short term chip supply is an issue but both parties want to reduce US dependancy on imports and diversify supply chains of critical supplies, like chips, if fluids, drugs.’

Chips don’t work like that I am afraid. That is why China still lags years behind the U.S.

A chip fab costs at least $20 bio. Aside from the cost, they need specialist machines and, most importantly, expertise. Barriers to entry are huge. According to a quick Google, Israel has about 1/12 of the entire world’s chip design talent.

You just can’t easily move that (if at all).

@Daftasabroom - whilst it may be 'screamingly obvious' that Israel stopping the war would make the most difference to the most lives in the ME 'this instant' - ie today and this week - it's far less obvious what the consequences would be in the medium to long term. Especially for Israeli citizens.

It's not obvious at all which actions from the Israeli leadership would lead to the best outcome for Israeli civilians in the medium to long term. It depends far too heavily on how other actors would react, which absolutely isn't clear. That's why there are different opinions within Israel and within the Israeli leadership - who for all their failings, do prioritise the future of their people. The current leadership have made a judgement call: to continue the war to completely destroy Hamas - believing that action to have the highest probability of a positive future for Israeli civilians.

However it is far, far clearer what actions from the Palestinian leadership would lead to the best outcome for Palestinian civilians in the short, medium and long term. There is no chance that continuing terrorism and aggression towards Israel will lead to better outcomes for Palestinians. None. That is why the Palestinian leadership and fighters should make that choice, if they prioritise the future of their people.

I really doubt the pro Israel lobby has the power to ‘pivot’ the election outcome. How would they do this?
@Newbutoldfather and@SharonEllis I never ever thought that the Pro-Israeli lobby had the power that it does until recently. It’s pretty complex- good judgement and a lot of money account for the sucesss of the candidates they back. AIPAC doesn’t back losers that couldn’t win elections- it usually backs good candidates with decent policies but only if they have a sufficiently pro- Israel bias. Smear tactics and attack ads are pretty normal in US politics but when you add Miriam Adel-son and the AIPAc superpac into the mix with such a close contest, Harris/Biden are treading on a wobbly tightrope. It’s a first pass the post system- winner takes all in a few swing states.

Chips can be made in much safer places that are not engaged in ethnic cleansing. Americans would prefer to make their own chips. Also the Israeli ingenuity is exceptional but there’s a pit of a whiff about the Israeli IT sector- Pegasus spyware, booby trapped pagers, the tech and defence industries are closely aligned and there will be other options . Yes, in the short term chip supply is an issue but both parties want to reduce US dependancy on imports and diversify supply chains of critical supplies, like chips, if fluids, drugs.

The US is self sufficient in fossil fuels. The EU not yet. Oil price stability is important for the world economy but we’re years into the Ukraine war and there hasn’t been a 1970s crisis.

@SharonEllis you know full well it's not the % of the population that counts but the % of party funding.

An "actor" usually refers to a stakeholder or someone or something involved. It doesn't necessarily refer to a single person, in fact rarely does so.

The actor in this instance is obviously Israel.

@Newbutoldfather 'I really doubt the pro Israel lobby has the power to ‘pivot’ the election outcome. How would they do this? Both sides of the debate can use smears and social media.'

Completely agree. Aipac supports both republicans and democrats. I think there are a lot of misunderstandings. For a start the jewish population in the US is around 2-2.5% of the US pooulation and many Jewish people don't even support aipac which has moved rightwards while Jewish people in America remain pretty liberal. The idea they can swing anything other than a small number of individual constitiencies is hardly realistic. Generally the US population has been pro-Israeli so if you want to succeed in US politics you are generally broadly Israeli. And aipac is not the only powerful PAC and they are all spending money on attack ads etc. I read recently that some Democrat candidates actually received a boost in raising money because they were NOT aipac endorsed. A lot of its influence comes in government & networking rather than actually swinging elections. They will work with whoever is in government.

You don't have control over 'any single actor'.

Neither do the Palestinian leadership and fighters.

What they do have control over is their own actions.

@Kindatired ,

‘I think we are going to see an intensification of the destruction and aid blockade between now and the US elections. It’s already escalating by the day and the Israeli right has become daily more brazen in the last couple of weeks in revealing plans to starve and resettle Gaza.’

I don’t really buy this. Israel won’t ignore Biden’s letter. They have already opened crossings for food. Netanyahu isn’t afraid of making things, such as the Lebanon invasion, a fait accompli, but he won’t countermand a direct threat from the U.S.

‘Harris is struggling and the Biden administration is spinning the Israeli tactical successes as joint success. For instance, has disclosed that rather than a random encounter, the execution of Sinwar was supported for months by high level high tech intelligence by CIA operatives that were actually secretly deployed in Israel. The Harris Biden administration is under pressure to bolster support from the powerful pro-Israeli lobby because this powerful lobby has the ability to pivot the election outcome quite quickly using smears and social media interventions.This gives Netanyahu a window of opportunity to run amok unreined and he is seizing his opportunity.’

I really doubt the pro Israel lobby has the power to ‘pivot’ the election outcome. How would they do this? Both sides of the debate can use smears and social media.

‘Netanyahu wants to send a message to Iran that it’s not worth attacking Israel. If he can’t prove to his own people that Israel is safer than anywhere else for Jewish people, this poses an existential threat to Israel- only religious extremists will want to remain in the country and the country would eventually be no different to any other low/midddle income country in the region. As such, it would be in even less of a position to defend itself and because it’s the intelligentsia and wealthy that has forged and maintained the strong bonds with the US.’

I partially agree with this. I don’t believe many Jews would feel safer in Israel than the U.S, say. I can’t really see that changing. I do agree, however, that Israel is pivoting dangerously to the right and becoming more religious. It still hasn’t tipped into a theocracy, but there are dangers it will, and a nuclear armed theocracy is a pretty terrifying idea (one of Israel’s right wing politicians did moot nuking Gaza, which shows him as equally terrifying and thick, given the fallout).

I do think that there is a bit of a misunderstanding as to why the U.S backs Israel almost regardless of what they do. It is the biggest static aircraft carrier that the U.S has in an unstable region full of hydrocarbons, and a nuclear armed ally. I don’t think it is about Israel being democratic or similarly religious to the U.S (unlike in Europe, the U.S see Judaism and Christianity as pretty much the same).

Finally, Israel is a key part of the global high tech chip supply chain. This is currently the single most important industry in the world. The U.S would take a massive hit, both militarily and economically, if Israel’s chip fabrication plants were taken out. I suspect that is, as much as anything else, why the U.S is prepared to defend Israeli soil with its systems and men.

@statsfun I have suggested that the Palestinian leaders and fighters should stop terrorism and aggression towards Israel.

Israel should stop terrorism saturation bombing and aggression genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank etc.

42,000 dead with absolutely zero sign of let up is obscene.

The biggest difference any single actor can make right now, this instant to the lives of all those in the ME is so screamingly obvious.

No, it wasn't. But people who can't be bothered learning about the region's history from unbiased sources and prefer emotive soundbites often seem to believe that.

It's not at all 'dodgy' or irrelevant to use examples from history to compare how different countries have responded to wars they have started and lost, the suffering of their civilian populations, and which approach has resulted in the best outcomes for their people.

I have suggested that the Palestinian leaders and fighters should stop terrorism and aggression towards Israel. That regardless of what Israel do or don't do - should or shouldn't do - that is their best option to achieve a positive future for Palestinian people.

That's not obscene.

What I consider obscene is to encourage the Palestinians to continue down a path which only leads to more harm for them.

To suggest that they can't make a different choice - even now when the power of Hamas has been broken - is insulting and harmful.