Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

The aftermath

243 replies

Auvergne63 · 12/10/2024 10:39

All wars end. I use the term "war" very loosely as I don't view this as a war.
What will happen to the Gazans? How can live in such devastation? How can they deal with so much trauma? Will they ever recover?
Gaza faces a massive reconstruction challenge. Here are key facts and figures | Reuters
The former Israeli prime minister Olmert thinks that Netanyahu has no plan for after the war. He has been a strident critic of his actions.
Ex-Israeli PM makes devastating condemnation of Netanyahu’s war in Gazan | The Independent
Here is a link to his peace proposal in collaboration with Nasser al-Kidwa
Former Israeli PM and former Palestinian foreign minister lay out joint plan to end Israel-Hamas war | CBC News

Ex-Israeli PM makes devastating condemnation of Netanyahu’s war in Gaza

Exclusive: Ehud Olmert tells The Independent that the ‘arrogance’ of his successor led to catastrophic security failures that allowed the bloody Hamas attack and that continuing an untenable military mission while hostages are still being held would be...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-olmert-gaza-offensive-israel-b2493430.html

OP posts:
PeasfullPerson · 13/10/2024 21:16

Dariamar · 13/10/2024 19:16

The combatant to civilian death rate in Gaza is somewhere between 1:1.1 and 1:1.5 which is very very low in war zones with high civilian populations like Gaza. I think the Israeli govt. Is doing what they can to avoid civilian casualties but it's very difficult. And there will be some members of the IDF, like any army who are bad and don't behave as they should but I can tell you the people I know in the IDF are fathers with children of their own who hate that there are any civilian deaths but they are fighting to defend their country, to keep their own families safe. There isn't a genocide, there are civilian casualties of war. The civilian casualties in Afghanistan after 9/11 were far higher but there weren't marches all over the west and declarations of " genocide" then, why do you think that was?

Where on earth did you get those figures?

And, who decided who was and wasn’t a
’combatant’?

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 13/10/2024 21:12

there are Palestinian Israelis but although they are nominally citizens they don't have the same rights

There are over 2 million Arab Israelis and they do have the same legal rights in the eyes of Israeli law. From wiki:
" the Israeli Supreme Court has consistently interpreted "Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty"[301] and "Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (1994)"[302] as guaranteeing equal rights for all Israeli citizens.[303"

They don't however have to do compulsory military service as there is an acknowledgement of conflict of interest (eg possibly having Palestinian relatives in the West Bank).

They do tend to attend separate schools as they have different home languages, but they're certainly not segregated from public hospitals etc as you earlier implied.

In fact Israeli hospitals do (did) also treat Palestinians despite them not being Israeli citizens - some of those murdered in Kibbutz Be'eri were active in collecting Gazans from the border to take them for medical treatment in Israel.

OctoberOctopus · 13/10/2024 21:07

Zzippit · 13/10/2024 20:47

My bad, I didn't realise no-one else was allowed to post on your thread.

😂 it feels a bit like that on some of these threads.

ismu · 13/10/2024 21:00

@Dariamar there are Palestinian Israelis but although they are nominally citizens they don't have the same rights eg. Schools are segregated, and as an example, Jewish people from across the world have right of return to Israel, but there's no such thing as right of return for Palestinian refugees.
In addition only5% of East Jerusalem Palestinians have been granted citizenship although this land was annexed by Israel in 1967.
More here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArabcitizenssofIsrael

OctoberOctopus · 13/10/2024 21:00

Catatonican · 13/10/2024 18:39

Not many people enjoy seeing others suffer. The whole situation is just sad all around as it didn't need to get to this stage. If and when the inevitable unfolds, the Israeli government will only have themselves to blame but sadly it will likely be the next generation that face the consequences.

A PP mentioned that the kicker this time is that noone can say they never knew. This is really the first large scale war involving multiple countries whereby you also have the full effect of social media platforms able to document and showcase everything real time. I have seen so much that I did not want to see. The brutality, lack of respect for human life and dehumanisation makes me sick to my stomach. The only thing worse than this is the justification empowered people across the world openly declare as rational for Israel to keep doing what they are doing.

I know several life long Conservatives. It's just anecdotal, but the spineless comments Rishi made about Israel support was the swing factor that made them vote Lib Dem in the election.

What do you mean by

"If and when the inevitable unfolds, the Israeli government will only have themselves to blame"

What's the 'inevitable'

Kendodd · 13/10/2024 20:59

Also, both sides seem so blinkered.
Example - the number of times the pro Palestine/anti war marchers have been described as nothing more than antisematic and that everyone on them supports Hamas.

Zzippit · 13/10/2024 20:58

Auvergne63 · 13/10/2024 20:55

Dear me.

Dear me indeed.

Kendodd · 13/10/2024 20:56

To get back to the question.
I don't know what will happen, I don't think it will end well for Israel though. I've said this before, the world is changing and in decades to come I don't think Israel will be able to count on American or Europe support for it's actions or supply of weapons. It also can't bomb or occupy it's way to peace, that will just stir up even more hatred. I think Israel really, really needs a two state solution. I'm not sure that will be good enough though or will stop the rockets. I think the furture for both the Israelis and Palestinans and wider area looks bleak.

Auvergne63 · 13/10/2024 20:55

Zzippit · 13/10/2024 20:47

My bad, I didn't realise no-one else was allowed to post on your thread.

Dear me.

OP posts:
Auvergne63 · 13/10/2024 20:50

SharonEllis · 13/10/2024 20:17

Ffs. I'm referring to the inconsistency of your argument. I am not saying the US started WW2.

No need to swear. You may find my argument inconsistent, but it doesn't mean it is. Opinions and facts are two different things.

OP posts:
Zzippit · 13/10/2024 20:47

Auvergne63 · 13/10/2024 20:43

With due respect, I am sure @SharonEllis can speak for herself.

My bad, I didn't realise no-one else was allowed to post on your thread.

OctoberOctopus · 13/10/2024 20:45

Dariamar · 13/10/2024 19:16

The combatant to civilian death rate in Gaza is somewhere between 1:1.1 and 1:1.5 which is very very low in war zones with high civilian populations like Gaza. I think the Israeli govt. Is doing what they can to avoid civilian casualties but it's very difficult. And there will be some members of the IDF, like any army who are bad and don't behave as they should but I can tell you the people I know in the IDF are fathers with children of their own who hate that there are any civilian deaths but they are fighting to defend their country, to keep their own families safe. There isn't a genocide, there are civilian casualties of war. The civilian casualties in Afghanistan after 9/11 were far higher but there weren't marches all over the west and declarations of " genocide" then, why do you think that was?

This.

Auvergne63 · 13/10/2024 20:43

Zzippit · 13/10/2024 19:24

With all due respect, if you really think that's what @SharonEllis said, your reading comprehension may require a little work.

With due respect, I am sure @SharonEllis can speak for herself.

OP posts:
Hunglikeapolevaulter · 13/10/2024 20:43

What exactly are you disagreeing with? Israel treats Palestinians as second class citizens

But Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens - why on earth would they be treated as if they were?
I'm not agreeing with the actions of settlers in the West Bank, btw. But Palestinians aren't Israelis. There are millions of Arab Israelis and they are certainly not segregated from roads or hospitals.

Auvergne63 · 13/10/2024 20:41

Dariamar · 13/10/2024 19:16

The combatant to civilian death rate in Gaza is somewhere between 1:1.1 and 1:1.5 which is very very low in war zones with high civilian populations like Gaza. I think the Israeli govt. Is doing what they can to avoid civilian casualties but it's very difficult. And there will be some members of the IDF, like any army who are bad and don't behave as they should but I can tell you the people I know in the IDF are fathers with children of their own who hate that there are any civilian deaths but they are fighting to defend their country, to keep their own families safe. There isn't a genocide, there are civilian casualties of war. The civilian casualties in Afghanistan after 9/11 were far higher but there weren't marches all over the west and declarations of " genocide" then, why do you think that was?

It is for the courts to decide if it is a genocide or not. Both our conflicting opinions are just that, opinions.
Oxfam seems to disagree with you that the figures are very low.
Daily death rate in Gaza higher than any other major 21st Century conflict - Oxfam | Oxfam International
Using publicly available data, Oxfam calculated that the number of average deaths per day for Gaza is higher than any recent major armed conflict including Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8). These figures are per day.
It is 250 dead For Gaza on average.
It is worth adding that these figures are for January 2024.
The Jewish voice for Labour seems to disagree with you too.
Official death toll in Gaza now 40,000; when will the world says NO! | Jewish Voice for Labour
And another one
CONFLICT: Children killed in Gaza war infographic (graphicnews.com)

Daily death rate in Gaza higher than any other major 21st Century conflict - Oxfam | Oxfam International

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam

OP posts:
ismu · 13/10/2024 20:24

Dariamar · 13/10/2024 20:18

I started to type a response to this but...🤯 I don't really know where to start.

What exactly are you disagreeing with? Israel treats Palestinians as second class citizens and settlers displace them and bulldoze their property.
In fact one of the hostages from last year's dreadful attacks was involved in taking Palestinian children to hospital in Israel for cancer treatments. Because their parents were not allowed to go with them.

ismu · 13/10/2024 20:21

@SharonEllis I see you have had my previous posts deleted.
It's really disappointing when people take views that align them with the very acts they purport to condemn.
Israel's actions are a stain on humanity.
They are in no way a stain on Jewish people. If you can't separate Jewish people from Zionists you will have difficulty criticising these crimes.

Dariamar · 13/10/2024 20:18

Sorry that was to ismu

Dariamar · 13/10/2024 20:18

I started to type a response to this but...🤯 I don't really know where to start.

SharonEllis · 13/10/2024 20:17

Auvergne63 · 13/10/2024 20:15

This is your quote: " If the USA was not reponsible for starting WW2 who was taking responsibility for whose actions in the implementation of the Marshall Plan?".

Ffs. I'm referring to the inconsistency of your argument. I am not saying the US started WW2.

Auvergne63 · 13/10/2024 20:15

SharonEllis · 13/10/2024 19:08

Where on earth did you get that from? I have never said the US started WW2? Dont be ridiculous.

This is your quote: " If the USA was not reponsible for starting WW2 who was taking responsibility for whose actions in the implementation of the Marshall Plan?".

OP posts:
ismu · 13/10/2024 20:13

@SharonEllis I'm interested as to why you won't explain why evil acts by Zionists in the IDF can't be compared to other evil acts without being antisemitic?

ismu · 13/10/2024 20:11

@Dariamar Israel may have great laws for citizens, however it does not apply those laws to Palestinians. They can't even drive on the same roads or use the same hospitals as Israelis. They aren't even allowed to gather rainwater on their own land.
Israel is a country like South Africa before Mandela, and Israelis believe this is fine. It is not . It is unsustainable.

SharonEllis · 13/10/2024 20:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I am not engaging further with you.

ismu · 13/10/2024 20:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.