Israeli minister calling for a state that includes many Middle Eastern countries

Where are you getting all that from? How have you decided that most Israelis are bloodthirsty racists?

Sorry to derail but I have to qualify what I mean. I’m not talking about Zelenskyy but the Azov Brigade, which you will know is what I meant, NOT Zelenskyy himself, who has had to yield to Ukrainian far right fighters, some of whom have carried the torch of Nazi ideology (although apparently the Azov Brigade has rebranded itself. Who knows?). But certainly this has been grist for Putin’s propaganda mill, especially with Ukraine’s history during the Holocaust. A Stepan Bandera skeleton in the closet is a useful tool for propaganda. I’m not saying Putin’s an ok guy. Not at all. But it is what it is. He’s utilising the greatest weapon leaders have in order to encourage young men to go out and kill or be killed. He’s no outlier. All leaders utilise propaganda.

And I’m not being ridiculous. Our global leaders are. Don’t lose sight of that truth SharonEllis.

@ Newbutoldfather most Israelis support Bibi though. Many think he is not aggressive enough. Let's face it , they just want rid of the Palestinians and are not too bothered about how that happens. Rather like lovable old granny Golda Meir who famously wanted the dowry but didn't fancy the groom. And she was a moderate....

@Dulra ,

‘We have PR here (Ireland). Our ministers are still held to account regardless, and the leader of the coalition can also remove their ministry or put forward a vote of no confidence or simply sack them’

But, if Netanyahu were to remove them from their positions, his government would fall. That is very different from Ireland,

Now, don’t get me wrong, I am no Netanyahu fan and I do think the honourable thing to do would have been to dismiss them and allow a vote of no confidence in his government.

As I said, he struck a Faustian bargain with the religious racist zealots. It will ultimately weaken Israel as they lose global respect.

But that does not make what I said wrong. They are not popular among the population or the majority of the government, and their more extreme views are not government policy and have never been put proposed as such.

I do understand your justifiable outrage but I think his views are extremist and not shared by the majority of Israelis

Which is why it is particularly awful that he is holding so much power in the West Bank, and that he and Ben-Givr are influencing Netanyahu’s decisions including about a ceasefire in Gaza and the release of hostages.

It is so lucky Israelis have (and allow) papers like Haaretz showing that many Israelis do not agree with everything being done in their name.

Israel has the backing of the USA, UK and multiple other states.

It has also been bombing these countries for months now. It is the stronger opponent.

@Abhannmor ,

‘Superficially attractive argument but....no. And Israel is up against a much weaker opponent.’

That very much depends whether you look at Hezbollah in isolation or Hezbollah plus Hamas plus Iran.

Israel is geographically minuscule and has a small population. It is vulnerable, which is why it has to be aggressive.

Iran said the other day that it was much more ‘resilient’ than Israel, which it clearly is.

Don’t you ever wonder why Hamas and Hezbollah commanders are always killed hiding amongst civilians? Don’t you think that they feel that the civilians are pawns in a propaganda war?

@Abhannmor thank you. I suspect if we turned it round so that the British were the victims in this then they'd be outraged

“What do we need to understand?”
@Newbutoldfather summed it up as “ you do need to understand that these people are in no sense popular in Israel and their views don’t represent the views of the vast vast majority of Israelis.”

I do understand your justifiable outrage but I think his views are extremist and not shared by the majority of Israelis.

That is a bit too glib isn't it? I was once at a meeting about Ireland where someone asked how one could justify the death of innocent people in a bomb attack in London . The reply was that ' the ends don't justify the means ; but the ends determine the means' ie the IRA are up against a vastly stronger opponent and must use any means necessary. Superficially attractive argument but....no. And Israel is up against a much weaker opponent.

I think it’s much easier for us to deplore and denounce abhorrent politicians than it is for people who are fearful and in the midst of a violent conflict. I don’t expect Gazans to denounce Hamas while under siege and I don’t expect Israelis to denounce their politicians when under siege . War polarises people. Moderate Israelis may well have become less moderate and likewise for Palestinians.

Edited - this is in response to posters who are blaming Israelis for their politicians.

This Guardian article from June has details of what Smotrich has been doing in the West Bank:
Israeli far-right minister speaks of effort to annex West Bank
Bezalel Smotrich says he aims to establish sovereignty over occupied territory and thwart a Palestinian state
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/24/israeli-far-right-minister-bezalel-smotrich-annex-west-bank

Some points I picked out from the article showing his actual power, which has a bearing on what happens even if people say they don’t agree with him.

• He is Finance Minister

• He has acquired new legal powers

• He is serving in Israel’s new defence ministry including with responsibility for the Civil Administration, which oversees Israel’s occupation of the West Bank.

• The Israeli military recently quietly handed over significant legal powers in the occupied West Bank to pro-settler civil servants working for Smotrich.

• Smotrich and his allies have long seen control of the Civil Administration, or significant parts of it, as a means of extending Israeli sovereignty in the West Bank.

• After entering government, Smotrich moved quickly to approve thousands of new settlement homes, “legalise” previously unauthorised wildcat outposts, and make it more difficult for Palestinians to build homes and move around.

This was last June. There will be many new acts by him no doubt. He is for example helping steal land from a Palestinian Christian family and announcing g a lot if new illegal settlements on a World Heritage site (see thread about Christians).

So if we don't like what we hear from Israeli government ministers we have to hunt around until we find something we do like?

That's mad. If an Israeli government minister goes on record with a particular policy proposal it's absolutely reasonable for people to take him seriously and not just dismiss him as an extremist or a crank.

I don't think all Israelis think like he does but he is a minister in the Isreali government so whether people like it or not he is representing them. Last I checked Israel was a democracy so I assume they have the means to remove him? Has there been any votes of no confidence in the Knesset? Has he been cautioned, sacked?

I would be more than happy to read information on how Isreali people are distancing themselves from his comments if you could share it?

You'd hope so.

I don’t know how much longer this can continue.

What do we need to understand ? That a person who is not liked much by Israeli citizens but that holds a ministerial role has said several countries in the ME should join?

maybe you have to understand that people will get outraged when someone that holds government responsibilities says things like this.

The BBC says

&bull;	The UK government <a class="break-all" href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cn0ew4egegpt?post=asset%3Abfa40346-18e1-4e99-a65e-cfe9b7a356ed#post" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">says it is &quot;appalled&quot;</a>d&quot;*_by reports that Israel has fired on UN bases in southern Lebanon

So WHAT are they going to do about it? Stop helping them to do it, would be a start.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cn0ew4egegpt

But people outside could do their research and have a better understanding, particularly when they have the opportunity on this thread to hear from people in Israel.

He won a ministry via Israel’s system of PR (which some want here). His party’s condition for being in the coalition were certain ministries.

We have PR here (Ireland). Our ministers are still held to account regardless, and the leader of the coalition can also remove their ministry or put forward a vote of no confidence or simply sack them

but you do need to understand that these people are in no sense popular in Israel and their views don’t represent the views of the vast vast majority of Israelis.

Unfortunately as Ministers in the Isreali government they are representing Isreali views on the global stage. That's what people outside Israel see and hear

@Dulra ,

‘If he is an extremist that no one supports why is he still holding a ministry?’

His party won 11% of the national vote, too many in my opinion but 9/10 Israelis don’t support him.

He won a ministry via Israel’s system of PR (which some want here). His party’s condition for being in the coalition were certain ministries.

Again, I think this is a disastrous Faustian bargain for Israel and the devil will be coming to claim their side of the bargain, but you do need to understand that these people are in no sense popular in Israel and their views don’t represent the views of the vast vast majority of Israelis.

Exactly as I pointed out upthread he's the Minister of Finance, a Minister in the Ministry of Defense and the Chairman of the Religious Zionist Party.

If he is an extremist that no one supports why is he still holding a ministry?

Personally I can't support any killing of civilians in a deliberate strike on an apartment block.

It's always women and children suffering. Always.

@itwasnevermine ,

Then you have to ban all wars, or maybe have soldiers with swords come together in fields as in medieval times.

Wars aren’t ‘OK’, as you put it, but they seem to be an inevitable outcome of an aggressive primate species with opposable thumbs for tool making.

And once you accept that, there will always always be civilian deaths too.

Do you really think this is okay?

If Russia had hit a Ukrainian apartment block would you be saying it was okay? Loss of civilian life on all sides of the war is not okay.

From CNN

• The reported target: A senior Hezbollah official was the target of the strikes, according to a source in the militant group, and Israeli media reports. Wafiq Safa, the leader of Hezbollah’s liaison unit, survived the assassination attempt, the Hezbollah source told CNN.