To say that to criticise the actions of the Israeli state…

Perhaps this is relevant to the discussion.

‘The dossier also refers to Woodcock’s connections to Israel, including his chairing of the Labour Friends of Israel group and three expenses-paid trips to the country. Woodcock has been a bitter critic of pro-Palestine protests that have taken place in the UK over the past year since Israel began its latest war on Gaza.’

It is one example of how conflicts of interest within the system that is meant to protect us from extremism, can lead to the demonisation of people that support the human rights of those in Palestine, and the suppression of any criticism of Israel.

Ironically, it is then the system that behaves in an extreme way, by encouraging those within it to act in disproportionate ways to peaceful people who are exercising their rights.

It’s been almost a year since I was victimised for vocalising my empathy for the people in Gaza, and I haven’t forgotten it.

Thinking of those who have unfairly labelled and lost their lives, or been punished for caring about human rights. In comparison my experience is completely insignificant, but I can’t help wonder if another place and time, and if I wasn’t a white woman, I could be you.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/11/keir-starmer-urged-to-sack-extremism-adviser-over-alleged-conflicts-of-interest

@itwasnevermine Again, I have said multiple times you should be able to make normal criticisms and not be called a racist. Obviously saying loss of life on both sides is awful doesn't make you a Nazi or I'd be one myself. But I am not the one conflating the racism and the criticisms. The people who are saying things like "the Jews deserved the Holocaust for what they're doing to Gaza" are doing that themselves.

But you're conflating a criticism with blatant racism.

You should be able to make levelled, genuine criticism without being afraid of being labelled as a racist. It literally happened to me on this thread. I said I didn't think the loss of innocent life on all sides was good and I got called a Nazi.

@itwasnevermine My point is that blanket statements like "criticising Israel isn't antisemitic" are very unhelpful given that people who are engaging in active racism will also claim to just have legitimate criticisms of Israel. I think each criticism should be judged on its own merits.

You said it wasn't that simple, I said it was that simple, abide by the law, we definitely wouldn't have anything to worry about if every supposedly civilised nation did this but unfortunately they don't, but still expect to be treated as such

@pucelleauxblanchesmains so what was the point you were trying to make? People are being blatantly antisemitic? We know, and the entire thread has said they disagree with that.

I’ve seen the picture you’re talking about, it is terrifying.
Even more terrifying are comments like "sick of Jew-sympathetic posts right now", the hatred is really something else.
There is a woman in Germany, a local politician (Karoline Preisler), who regularly goes to pro-Palestine rallies holding up placards like “Rape is not resistance” or “Believe Israeli women”.
She’s been receiving numerous threats, including to her children, and needs police protection during the rallies. It’s mind blowing.

I quite literally said not every criticism and indeed most criticisms of Israel are not antisemitic so I think I'll just leave it there.

If I were to say "the Taliban is bad because they are a theocracy who oppress women and non-believers", that's not Islamophobic. If I said "the Taliban are bad because Muslim men are all stupid & backwards" and I asked all my British Muslim colleagues to condemn the Taliban, that's Islamophobic.

@pucelleauxblanchesmains because that's not a criticism!! Nothing you listed was a criticism. It was antisemitic comments.

You're essentially saying every criticism of Israel is antisemitism, which is isn't. Saying "I believe that Israel has a right to defend itself, but I believe their actions have gone too far now and it has gone beyond defending themselves, but I also acknowledge that the other countries in the region have also strayed beyond self defence." is not antisemitic.

[note that when I refer to Israel I mean the government, not the popularion]

I'm really confused by what you're trying to get across here. It's meaningless to say "it's not antisemitic to criticise Israel" if you then define criticising Israel as excluding any antisemitic statements. Clearly some people do criticise Israel in ways that are antisemitic. Is criticising Israel inherently antisemitic? No of course not! But it's useless as a blanket statement to say "criticising Israel isn't antisemitic". Mostly it isn't. Sometimes it is. Like many other things in the world, it is complex.

Clearly that wasn’t what I meant.
If every conflict could be boiled down to countries just learning to behave themselves, as per your post re Israel, we’d have nothing to worry about would we?

Interesting that you drew the inference that you did from my posts.

@pucelleauxblanchesmains if I buy a dog and call it a cat, does it make it a cat? No. Just because they say it's a criticism doesn't mean it actually is.

Why not? Because it's OK if Israel break International Law but not OK if anyone else does it? That's not how it works

Yes, but as I said, "couched in criticism of Israel". All the posts I referred to were framed as "I'm just criticising Israel & you can criticise Israel without being antisemitic".

Yesterday a history account posted a photo of the 1941 Lviv pogrom. Someone quote tweeted it saying the Jewish woman in the picture had killed a Gentile baby and that's why she was being chased down the street half-dressed. They then openly admitted they'd completely made it up because they were "sick of Jew-sympathetic posts right now". Absolutely terrifying what people are using Israel's actions to justify.

But that's not criticism of Israel. It's just out and out racism.

Of course you can and should criticise the actions of Israel. However, things I have recently seen couched as criticism of Israel on the site formerly known as Twitter include: saying it's no surprise because "they killed Jesus". Saying this is why 109 countries expelled their Jews. Saying Holocaust victims "probably deserved it because look what they went on to do". Is it any wonder people begin to have suspicions?

It’s really not simple.

I know Hamas are the government of Gaza, they're also a terrorist group are they not? I know right from wrong, Hamas is wrong, they break International Law and Israel is wrong, because they also break International Law, if you want to be seen as a civilised nation stop commiting war crimes. Simple.

The difference is Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist groups, no-one is expecting them to uphold International Law, I hear people on this forum speaking about Israel being the only civilised country in the Middle East, so why don't they start acting like it?

Am not Jewish. I am vehemently against the atrocities of Hamas on 7th Oct last year. I also this the actions of Netanyahu are beyond reprehensible. I am pro peace and freedom including and especially in Palestine but everywhere really. Sadly this conflict has brought out islamaphobia, antisemitism, antipalestinism. I would like to go out and protest the indiscriminate killing and displacement of innocent civilians but cannot for 2 reasons. One of them being the presence of antisemitic people in crowds of justifiable protests. It's all very infuriating and sad.

Interestingly there was an agreement on movement after the second intifada, it would have definitely improved conditions for Gazans. Hamas refused to recognise it. This, exactly things like this is how Hamas harmed Gaza.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_Movement_and_Access

Also Ihab Hassan @ ihabhassane
ahmed fouad Alkhatib @ afalkhatib

These guys have varying views, one or two seem to deeply dislike each other. Some of it may be uncomfortable reading for Israelis, but they are allowed to be angry at the death of Palestinians and I think thats fair. But they are exactly the kind of people who want to live hamas free. It’s such a fallacy that people love Hamas and approve of it.

It’s similar to the situation in Lebanon, in the west idiots are holding up placards or waving hezb flags in Lebanon people know hezb is destructive and they know that they represent the interests of Iran not theirs.

This is not the same as being pro-israeli but it’s also not “lets destroy Israel” territory either.