US doctors letter : Death toll in Gaza likely close to 120k

That is very shocking.

Sniping at children (why? For fun?) will not bring hostages back or make Israel secure.

Sorry, I got the wrong quote here. This was not a response to EasterIsland.

@Scirocco I know you're posting in good faith and I appreciate your questions.

I think that all the players in this conflict are indeed adopting 'an ends justify the means' approach. Doesn't make it right. But I believe that's what they're doing, yes.

And your point about medical professionals is a very interesting one. I'm not one, just like I'm not a politician, or a terrorist, or an Israeli, or a Gazan (you get the gist!) but in trying to be empathetic I'd imagine that they are looking at the lives (and unfortunately the bodies) in front of them now, rather than those that could be in the future and understandably prioritise the former.

@ScrollingLeaves I know people who received kill orders for children even before this conflict. What we're seeing is the widespread implementation of what has been happening for decades. It's a protocol with which people at various levels are comfortable.

@BeretInParis thanks, that's an interesting perspective. So, an 'ends justify the means' approach? Where do the intentional shooting of children and use of torture techniques against healthcare workers and other detainees fit in to that? (Not goading, not trying to offend, just seeking to understand).

Healthcare professionals are very used to making hard decisions, navigating situations where there are no perfect solutions, and having to balance immediate and long-term needs, especially people in emergency response specialities and public health. We still have limits and frameworks, though, so I'm curious about where people feel the limits should be.

So it seems that pro-Israeli people see Hamas as being entirely responsible for what has happened in Gaza?

There is no reflection of how Israelis have repeatedly voted in a government which does not want to work with Palestinians to create a 2SS nor how their government has enabled the creation of Hamas in a dangerous game of dividing and conquering your enemy.

This is why Netanyahu and his right wing government has been able to stay in power.

The fear for their safety in Israel has resulted in blind rage that sees no opportunity for reflection on what role Israel has played in stalling a 2SS (eg continuing to expand settlements) nor the subsequent impact of innocent Palestinians at the hands of the IDF over many years.

I think Netanyahu has clearly demonstrated the lives of the hostages are dispensible to his own political goals.

« The report lends credence to charges often leveled at the prime minister – most notably by hostage families – of purposefully prolonging the war and torpedoing deals for his political benefit. Far-right members of Netanyahu’s coalition have pledged to bring down the government should he end the war. »

edition.cnn.com/2024/09/04/middleeast/netanyahu-derailed-hostage-deal-in-july-intl/index.html

Thank you @EasterIssland

This letter by 99 US doctors is important. It clearly rebuts certain denials about the Israel/Gaza war.

The stated death toll of 41,800 is a Hamas lie. Is it really?

This letter and the appendix show probative evidence that the human toll in Gaza since October is far higher than is understood in the United States. It is likely that the death toll from this conflict is already greater than 118,908, an astonishing 5.4% of Gaza’s population.

The deaths of civilians are as a result of collateral damage, not intentional, and no war crimes have been committed. Really?

It is questionable that bombing a whole section of refugee camp in order to (reportedly) kill a few Hamas fighters means the many Palestinian deaths are simply collateral damage. But apart from that, what about killing children?

Children are universally considered innocents in armed conflict. However, every single signatory to this letter saw children in Gaza who suffered violence that must have been deliberately directed at them. Specifically, every one of us who worked in an emergency, intensive care, or surgical setting treated pre-teen children who were shot in the head or chest on a regular or even a daily basis. It is impossible that such widespread shooting of young children throughout Gaza, sustained over the course of an entire year is accidental or unknown to the highest Israeli civilian and military authorities.

It's a tragedy. But it's a tragedy that could have been avoided by Hamas:

• not stating its intent is to destroy israel and the Jews
• not using billions of aid money to build terror tunnels under their people
• not embezzling billions of aid money into their leaders' bank accounts
• not using civilians as human shields
• not stealing aid and selling it on the black market
• not paying people to reward them for the death of Jews
• not undertaking a terrorist attack on 7 Oct
• not taking hostages
• not releasing the hostages
• not preventing civilians from moving away from bombs aimed at destroying the terror tunnels under buildings and infrastructure.

Israel now has the unenviable and much misunderstood task of creating security for its people. It is doing the dirty work of the West to ensure terrorists aren't in a position to repeat further atrocities. That is why western powers say one thing to their populace and actually are supportive of Israel's actions.

Israel is the only country that while fighting provides aid to its enemy, tells civilians to move from targeted areas, etc. War is a terrible thing. Many innocents suffer. There will be suffering now to prevent deeper suffering later.

Many people, including those doctors, are looking at the here and now. Suffering now. Stop the war now. And I sympathise with and appreciate the immediate view. But governments shouldn't just act for the here and now. They have to look to the future and I believe the Israeli government thinks stopping now will cause greater suffering later. What a horrible decision to make.

I think in a similar vein, the Israeli government is also trying to tread the line between having hostages released and considering the greater good of all 8+ million Israeli's security.

I would be interested in the thoughts of people who have supported Israel's actions and the support of these actions by the US and other countries, on how reading this letter feels. Does it change anything, to read the accounts of what is being done?

People who live in the countries facilitating this, our taxes are contributing to this as well. Our elected leaders are agreeing with this. Does that change anything in how people feel? What people think?

Please refer to my post above.

Hamas started this.

No. Lord Balfour started this. Offering to give away a country that did not belong to Britain.

And here we are. This is going to go on until the Palestinians get their rightfully owned lands back.

But there just isn't the political will amongst the countries that are powerful enough to make this happen.

So Israel continues to do what they have always done. Except this time it's far more brutal and deadly.

Pity the nation...

It wasnt one question was it, Im not going back over it but I think she was asked directly twice and there were also comments about people not reading the letter obviously aimed at her. The thread was derailed initially by someone else throwing in the antisemitism strawman. And now its you thats keeping it going when Humdingery has made it clear she wants out. You could drop it!

@SharonEllis
I can understand why people think it is goading to say that criticism of IDF leads to cries of antisemitism.

However - the way that this forum has moved over time has shifted. You have to forgive people for not keeping track of what is now acceptable to say. Early on - after 7/10 - it was understandable that emotions were raw, and criticism of IDF’s action and suggestions that they were breaking international law WAS seen as antisemitism.

There was defence of Israel’s policies with regard to its water and food supply to Gaza. This has now been seen as suggestive of a war crime by an independent panel of lawyers.

We then- and still do- hear defence of Israel by saying people are displaying antisemitism by only focusing on Israel and not on other areas of atrocities in the world.

What is acceptable criticism of Israel has moved on- but arguably that’s because the majority of people have had their eyes opened to what is happening in Gaza and now Lebanon.

Perhaps we could now return to discussing the topic of the thread. Namely, the first-hand accounts and analyses of the horrendous suffering being inflicted upon Gaza by Israel, and which many people and powers around the world seek to ignore.

Well, if people think it's goading to ask a question, once, then that rather removes the point of trying to have discussions. It would be respectful to the people of Palestine and to the brave healthcare professionals risking their own lives and careers by speaking about what they have seen, to have a discussion about what they have reported.

Independent reporters have been prevented from entering Gaza. All the reports from the official government organisations are discredited by media and individuals. People say "we can't trust the accounts" and "the figures are over-inflated" and "but people aren't independent". Here, we have people with relevant experience, independent, reporting first-hand accounts and analyses of what is happening. People now choose to ignore those reports, and the reasons are very clear.

(As an aside, unless you have access to a list of all posters' activities including posts reported and private messages, it's actually impossible to know whether anyone has turned a blind eye to anything. People may respond in different ways, people may have received feedback from others about how to respond. For example, if other posters tell someone their interventions are unwelcome, or if moderators feed back that posts are remaining because they've been challenged in a thread, someone might choose to report something or to message a person directly in private.)

Except that she had already explained, so to persist was goading. Cant you leave it at that? When someone identifies something offensive from other posters its hardly reasonable to then expect them to engage with the posters who A said the offensive thing or B turned a blind eye to that offensive thing. Thats human nature, surely?

I have no problem with people objecting to or reporting posts which contain prejudiced or offensive terms of any nature. Why would I?

And I really fail to see how asking you one question is goading. It's simply asking if you've read the linked letter since your previous post. Which isn't really an unreasonable question to ask someone on a thread specifically about the letter, which is one of the only independent reports coming out of Gaza due to the blocking of access to independent journalists and observers

Im willing to bet thar literally noone on these threads has ever said that anyone who is against the current regime is antisemitic.

Not my argument , but it really is wrong to continue to pretend to think that anyone who is against the current right wing Israeli regime is antisemitic. They are not. Many Israelis are against them too. Is Jo. Biden also antisemtic?

Thank you @Scirocco they are shocking statistics which will have a lifelong impact on the people of Gaza, once the troops are gone the processing and trauma will set in and unfortunately I don't hold out much hope that they'll get the support and help to try and rebuild both physically and psychologically

Well said @Scirocco
There is another thread, not in CIME, about the degree of reporting of the ME conflict on UK news. It was heartening to read how people did agree this news was important and very relevant to lives hear, not least due to what our UK government has been doing to support the conflict in arming Israel.
The majority of the UK want Israel to stop their military action and for the UK to even stop arming Israel. Only 13% said Israel should continue to take military action. The poll was in May- think about the lives that could have been saved and escalation that could have been avoided…

ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_-_Gaza_attitudes_May_2024.pdf

Have you read the letter, @Humdingerydoo ?

Poster A was spreading an anti-Semitic trope. So at that point, poster C wouldn't be entirely wrong in their accusation because the trope has been purposely used. If poster C had made an accusation without poster A having first used an anti-Semitic trope, that would obviously be an entirely different story. I didn't see poster C's comments so I can't comment on any specifics. I'm just responding to the general point your were apparently trying to make.

Poster A made a conscious decision to "rant" on this thread. That means that any perceived derailment is actually on them even if you'd all prefer to blame me for not just letting her have her little moment. Anti-Semitic tropes shouldn't be ignored. Just like Islamophobic ones shouldn't, and I've personally frequently spoken out against those as well and will continue to do so even if it's considered derailment by some.

As long as no one adds any further goady posts on this thread you'll be glad to know I really am out now. I only came back to this thread because I heard of the subsequent goadiness. So if you want to keep me from derailing aka speaking out against anti-Semitism you just need to cut out the passive aggressiveness and focus on the topic you actually wanted to discuss in the first place.