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Conflict in the Middle East

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MissyB1 · 02/10/2024 11:00

yummyscummymummy01 · 02/10/2024 09:49

It's a terrifying situation. Whilst I sympathise with a country having the right to defend itself the question with Israel has always been how proportionate their response is. The slaughter in Gaza, and the Wests support of it, has made that region and all the country's involved less safe. Israel now seem to be acting with no regard for the views of its allies and feels dangerously out of control to me.
Please don't respond to this by telling me to read up on the history of the Middle East. I'm well aware of it, and the endless cycle of death and hatred and racism will only continue with the death of even more people.
There aren't any easy answers but this current escalation is definitely not the right one.

I agree, it's very much about "proportioniate" and Israel increasingly failing to recognise (or just showing blatant disregard) for what is a proportionate response. the "self defence" argument went out of the window long ago. The current escalation should never have happened, a ceasefire in Gaza could have prevented it, and now a spiral of very dangerous tit for tat has been set in motion. Call me a cynic but I'm starting to believe this is exactly what Israel wanted and planned for. Netanyahu is a very dangerous man, in the same way that Putin is.

yummyscummymummy01 · 02/10/2024 09:49

It's a terrifying situation. Whilst I sympathise with a country having the right to defend itself the question with Israel has always been how proportionate their response is. The slaughter in Gaza, and the Wests support of it, has made that region and all the country's involved less safe. Israel now seem to be acting with no regard for the views of its allies and feels dangerously out of control to me.
Please don't respond to this by telling me to read up on the history of the Middle East. I'm well aware of it, and the endless cycle of death and hatred and racism will only continue with the death of even more people.
There aren't any easy answers but this current escalation is definitely not the right one.

inamarina · 02/10/2024 09:18

maudelovesharold · 01/10/2024 23:53

Let's hope civilian casualties are kept to a minimum though ....

Yeah….right. The chances of civilian casualties being kept to a minimum are, as I’m sure we all know, precisely zero. The civilians will bear the brunt, as always. Unfortunately not all civilians have the protection of bunkers and iron domes.

Why didn’t Hamas ensure that the Gazan civilians have the protection of bunkers? After all, they managed to build quite elaborate underground tunnels.

Humdingerydoo · 02/10/2024 09:03

mouthpipette · 02/10/2024 01:23

Humdingerydoo said ( my responses in bold)

I 100% stand by my previous assessment that you have particularly extreme views. I'm surprised no one has never mentioned this to you before.
Your "solution" was something along the lines of Israel withdrawing from everywhere, (No, I said just from Gaza and the West bank ) accepting all the blame for everything that's happened on all fronts over the last few decades ( I never said they were to blame for everything) and then they can eventually discuss the hostages at some point. (Yes) So give the terrorists everything they want, (No, I didn't say that Terrorists should have everything they want. They want to "dismantle the Zionist project" and I never wrote that I wished for that. Personally I would like to see a radically modified Zionist project) and then we can discuss when they're ready. That is very much not a feasible or even remotely sensible solution. It's the kind of suggestion only someone with particularly extreme views would make. (That's the second time you've mentioned my extreme views, I think you meant to say "extremely fair and sensible views")
So no, I won't be addressing your "points" further than this because quite frankly, I don't think you'll actually listen to what I'm saying anyway. ( I'm here, aren't I?) You are so sure that you are on the right side of history despite seemingly agreeing with terrorists ( Where in my post did I agree with terrorists?) on this matter that I honestly wouldn't even know where to begin.( Try looking at the conflict from another point of view)
The way you minimised absolutely every single Israeli fear ( I put those fears into context. However, Israelis have been made to be fearful, both by the actions of their enemies and their own government) is what really put me off your post, by the way. It's absolute insanity to pretend that "the other side" doesn't have legitimate concerns.(I'm not quite sure what you meant by this last statement, it seems a bit muddled, akin to that which went before it.)

Edited

mouthpipette · Yesterday 16:07
I've added my (reluctant and against my better judgment) responses to your original post in bold. I haven't addressed the subsequent one as you've pretended to not have said certain things that you did, in fact, say. None of what you said is fair or feasible. It is letting terrorists win.

The answer is really very simple and it is; withdraw from Gaza, stop provoking Hezbollah and Iran, pull out the settlers from the west bank and then sit down and start to negotiate the release of Hostages and a way forward for Palestinians and Israelis to live without violence.
IE do everything the terrorists want. That's you going along with terrorists. That's also you laying all the blame for everything at Israel's feet. You are accusing Israel of provoking Hezbollah and Iran even though everyone knows Iran was behind October 7th in the first place (quite the provocation, don't you think?) and Iran-backed Hezbollah are the aggressors since they started attacking Israel unprovoked on October 8th and haven't stopped since. So again, you're choosing to side with terrorists. What you're saying is, hostage-taking works. That would encourage them to do so again.

In an attempt to pre-empt your responses.

“They’ll do another October 7” . A repeat of October would not happen if Israel were to line up its armour on its borders and also to listen to its intelligence.
Both Hamas and Hezbollah have been working on another October 7th. Thanks to Israeli intelligence the one Hezbollah was preparing has been prevented for now. Hamas leaders have been saying for a year that they will do it all again and again and again. I'm not sure why you dont believe them when they say this, but you do believe them when they say they will enter into hostage negotiations once Israel has withdrawn from everywhere? That's absolute insanity. Just having armour on its borders won't be enough, just like it wasn't a year ago.

“They’ll pummel us with rockets” The rockets that Hamas launch are really of no consequence. Their effects are exaggerated in order to justify Israeli aggression. They are nearly all unguided, carry a small payload and cause very few fatalities. For Israel they are an expensive annoyance. Hezbollah does possess more sophisticated ballistic missiles, and they are a threat, but they have not used them and are unlikely to do so, unless they are attacked, which is what is happening at the moment.
Tell that to the hospital in Israel that was hit directly by a rocket from Gaza early on in the current conflict, or the people whose houses have been destroyed by these rockets that are apparently "of no consequence". Unless you're willing to be hit by one yourself, they are very much of consequence. Saying otherwise is absolutely outrageous. And absolutely laughable that you think Hezbollah haven't been using their missiles! How do you think those 12 children died in northern Israel? Trying to minimise the effect rockets have is, again, only something those with extreme views would do as it's not even a remotely normal argument to be making

Remember it is Israel that has escalated the situation on its northern border, not Hezbollah. Up until recently the two protagonists were simply trading artillery fire across the border, because up until a fortnight ago, neither side wanted to get embroiled in a full scale war.
That's rewriting history. Israelis up north have been displaced for a year because Hezbollah decided to start firing rockets into Israel. That means Hezbollah escalated it. You can't just deny facts to suit your particularly extreme narrative of choice. You really need to stop minimising everything Hezbollah has done and is capable of doing. "Simply trading artillery fire" as though that's perfectly normal. I mean, come on.

“They pose an “existential threat” to Israel” is yet another exaggeration used to justify Israeli aggression. Compare the military capabilities of Hamas and Hezbollah with that of Israel and that will be immediately apparent. The same argument applies to non-nuclear Iran.
Iran are as non-nuclear as Israel is. And when Israel is being attacked from every single direction, they are under existential threat even if you for some reason have decided to minimise this fear, just like you've minimised everything else that Israel has to deal with in your post.

“Hamas wants to eradicate all Jews” . Even if it were true, I doubt if they could get anywhere near to achieving this, as there are well over 15 million Jews in the world and only a few thousand members of Hamas. Yet another fallacious argument.
So because you specifically don't think this is something they'll be able to do, you don't mind them making that threat? But also, bear in mind this isn't actually something I've said. This is you having some rather odd conversation with yourself.

“You cannot negotiate with terrorists.” Well the release of hostages in November proved that you can. You’ll also find that over the decades there have been a number of agreements between the protagonists in this conflict that you don’t get to hear about.
The fact that Hamas stopped releasing hostages means that no, you cannot trust them and you cannot successfully negotiate with them. Why weren't 3/4 of the Bibas family released in November? Why wasn't Noa Argamani? Carmel Gat? They had live hostages that fit their criteria for release yet kept them behind and elected to resume the war instead. They also didn't release enough hostages the last day, declaring that two released as goodwill the previous day would count towards the total tally. Unsurprisingly, genocidal, murderous terrorists can't be trusted.

“You’re an antisemite”. No I’m not.again, not something I've actually said. I think you have extreme views that often align with those of various terrorist organisations though.

Ilovetowander · 02/10/2024 08:52

The situation is extremely worrying for peace across the world and has been for almost a year. The actions last October were not resolved and Israel was encouraged not to retaliate. Other democratic governments would not have been treated in such a way in my view, the approach to terrorist organisations by the US was not criticised when they attacked other sovereign nations. Israel is continuously being asked to hold back. If Israel were the size of the US and as dominant I doubt they would be asked to do that.

TheGoatgotout · 02/10/2024 08:37

We didn’t obliterate Germany. Also it was a world response to Germany INVADING other countries.

mids2019 · 02/10/2024 05:20

Look quite simply we could have said nazism would still exist even if the third Reich was defeated so why bother with D day and VE day. Hey the German people would have still rallied round after the German defeat as many of their civilians got killed. Didn't happen and now Germany is a peace living country that expunged the hate filled ideology 80 years ago. Sometimes war is necessary sadly.

mids2019 · 02/10/2024 05:16

So......The G day landings were an invasion not a defence and so we should condemn them? Weird logic.....

StandingSideBySide · 02/10/2024 04:57

Chrishelle · 01/10/2024 17:20

Israel has every right to defend its land and people. As always in war, there will be innocents killed. Terrorists need to be destroyed, so that peace loving people can get on with their lives.

Thousands of civilians being targeted is not acceptable in any conflict.

Every country and people have a right to defend themselves. However as the UN and many leaders stated many many months ago invasion is not defence.

Israel is not by definition defending themselves, they are attacking and invading beyond their borders.

mouthpipette · 02/10/2024 01:23

Humdingerydoo said ( my responses in bold)

I 100% stand by my previous assessment that you have particularly extreme views. I'm surprised no one has never mentioned this to you before.
Your "solution" was something along the lines of Israel withdrawing from everywhere, (No, I said just from Gaza and the West bank ) accepting all the blame for everything that's happened on all fronts over the last few decades ( I never said they were to blame for everything) and then they can eventually discuss the hostages at some point. (Yes) So give the terrorists everything they want, (No, I didn't say that Terrorists should have everything they want. They want to "dismantle the Zionist project" and I never wrote that I wished for that. Personally I would like to see a radically modified Zionist project) and then we can discuss when they're ready. That is very much not a feasible or even remotely sensible solution. It's the kind of suggestion only someone with particularly extreme views would make. (That's the second time you've mentioned my extreme views, I think you meant to say "extremely fair and sensible views")
So no, I won't be addressing your "points" further than this because quite frankly, I don't think you'll actually listen to what I'm saying anyway. ( I'm here, aren't I?) You are so sure that you are on the right side of history despite seemingly agreeing with terrorists ( Where in my post did I agree with terrorists?) on this matter that I honestly wouldn't even know where to begin.( Try looking at the conflict from another point of view)
The way you minimised absolutely every single Israeli fear ( I put those fears into context. However, Israelis have been made to be fearful, both by the actions of their enemies and their own government) is what really put me off your post, by the way. It's absolute insanity to pretend that "the other side" doesn't have legitimate concerns.(I'm not quite sure what you meant by this last statement, it seems a bit muddled, akin to that which went before it.)

TheGoatgotout · 02/10/2024 00:26

So how will Israel eliminate the threat? Hamas and Hezbollah won’t cease to exist just because some leadership were killed. The many thousands of ordinary citizens killed as a consequence of going for the leaders will grow willing volunteers to take up the mantle. The current methodology doesn’t seem to be subduing those Israel wishes to eradicate. In fact, the spread and escalating conflict make it clear decimating Gaza has ignited more hate towards Israel. This ‘best form of defence is offence’ doesn’t seem to have a possible exit strategy, other than Israel wiping out entire civilisations. I understand wanting to defend. But surely than should be protecting borders more, using Intel and mossad doing what they’re very capable of - targeted hits on specific individuals. When you use bombs from jets in the enemy’s airspace and tanks in their borders, it’s no longer defence.

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 23:57

mouthpipette · 01/10/2024 23:46

You asked a question and I went to the trouble of giving you my answer in which I outlined my solutions, highlighting 6 arguments. From what I recall you dismissed the ideas as coming from someone who held views that were "really,really extreme" Apart from that you have not even attempted to address them. Please outline why the points I raised are "unfeasible" .

Gloriana 1 thought I was "mad in the brain" At least from her I got a free diagnosis.

I 100% stand by my previous assessment that you have particularly extreme views. I'm surprised no one has never mentioned this to you before.

Your "solution" was something along the lines of Israel withdrawing from everywhere, accepting all the blame for everything that's happened on all fronts over the last few decades and then they can eventually discuss the hostages at some point. So give the terrorists everything they want, and then we can discuss when they're ready. That is very much not a feasible or even remotely sensible solution. It's the kind of suggestion only someone with particularly extreme views would make.

So no, I won't be addressing your "points" further than this because quite frankly, I don't think you'll actually listen to what I'm saying anyway. You are so sure that you are on the right side of history despite seemingly agreeing with terrorists on this matter that I honestly wouldn't even know where to begin.

The way you minimised absolutely every single Israeli fear is what really put me off your post, by the way. It's absolute insanity to pretend that "the other side" doesn't have legitimate concerns.

CopperTurquoise · 01/10/2024 23:57

Gosh, I wonder why so many Israeli homes have a bomb shelter.

maudelovesharold · 01/10/2024 23:53

Let's hope civilian casualties are kept to a minimum though ....

Yeah….right. The chances of civilian casualties being kept to a minimum are, as I’m sure we all know, precisely zero. The civilians will bear the brunt, as always. Unfortunately not all civilians have the protection of bunkers and iron domes.

wavingfuriously · 01/10/2024 23:52

Lalaloveya · 01/10/2024 14:32

That's a huge worry. They literally got away with genocide in Gaza and not only did the west not try to stop them, but they supported them and armed them. It's obscene. I hope to God this doesn't last long. I can hardly bear to follow it, so it's incomprehensible what the ordinary people there are going through.

agree...thousands of innocent children slaughtered.. it's insane, just can't believe how the world let it happen 🤷‍♀️😢

mouthpipette · 01/10/2024 23:46

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 19:20

Thanks @SharonEllis !

I don't expect any actual feasible solutions from anyone on here - I was hoping my question would at least get them thinking though, but no. Too firmly stuck in the "it's all Israel's fault" camp and unwilling to consider that it might actually be quite a bit more complicated than that. Being so incredibly simplistic about it all isn't helpful, but they don't want to be helpful or to figure out solutions, they just want someone to blame. Oh well.

You asked a question and I went to the trouble of giving you my answer in which I outlined my solutions, highlighting 6 arguments. From what I recall you dismissed the ideas as coming from someone who held views that were "really,really extreme" Apart from that you have not even attempted to address them. Please outline why the points I raised are "unfeasible" .

Gloriana 1 thought I was "mad in the brain" At least from her I got a free diagnosis.

MissyB1 · 01/10/2024 22:27

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 16:45

No. Have you seen the 7/10 documentary?

The Hamas terrorists that performed such atrocities don't care about their civilians. They don't care about people.

They just want to kill Israelis.

And they use their own 'people' as collateral damage.

So Israel can't step back because there is no 'stepping back' for Hamas or Hezbollah.

The poster I had quoted stated that "pro Palestine" posters were anti semitic. Which is a totally incorrect and unacceptable accusation. It is however a frequent accusation.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/10/2024 21:32

BillySnuz · 01/10/2024 17:59

Are you ok @SometimesCalmPerson? Because you don’t seem like you’re ok.

Firstly, a couple of questions for you. What language do Israelis speak, and where does it come from? (Answer: Hebrew - Ancient Israel. Hebrew has its origins in the Semantic language group known as the Canaanite group, which has its written records dating back to the second millennium BCE).

Now answer this question: what language do Palestinians speak and where does that language come from? (Answer: Arabic - this language can can be traced back to the Arabian Peninsula, where it developed over time from a group of dialects spoken by the nomadic Bedouin tribes - the earliest form of Arabic, known as Old Arabic, dates back to the 4th century CE).

The connection between the Jewish people and Israel goes back long before the birth of either Christianity or Islam. Jews created a society there in the days of Joshua, a kingdom in the days of Saul, and a nation with Jerusalem as its capital in the days of King David - more than 3,000 years ago.

Jews are the only people who ever created a nation state there. At all other times in the past 3,000 years it was merely an administrative district in an empire whose centre was elsewhere: the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Alexandrian, Roman and Byzantine empires, the Crusaders of the Holy Roman Empire, the various Muslim empires such as the Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, Mamluks and Ottomans - and finally, the British. Jews are the only people who have maintained a continuous presence in the land. They are its indigenous, original inhabitants.

Let’s compare and contrast this to the other side shall we? Remember, at the end of the day Palestinians are Arabs - there is no such thing as a separate Palestinian people, no matter what dodgy, ahistorical nonsense some TikTok accounts spew out. The Gazans are mainly Egyptian (their surnames bear this out). The Israeli Arabs that decided to stay after 1947 had most likely lived on the land for centuries. And the ones who now live under Palestinian Authority rule in the West Bank are made up of peoples who came to the land from all over the Ottoman Empire. Again, you can tell by the surnames. You can also tell by studying Ottoman and British Mandate census accounts and records. It’s all verifiable.

And here’s the thing, because the British Mandate was so well run and there was a good chance a person could get employment, there was lots of legal and illegal immigration from Syria, Lebanon and Egypt. Under the Ottomans, the population of Palestine generally was small. Jerusalem, for obvious reasons, was an exception. Palestine as a nation and ‘population’ is relatively recent construct. They didn’t even start calling themselves Palestinians until the mid-ish 1960s, it was the Soviet Union that even gave them the idea (because the Soviet Union was rabidly antisemitic and did everything it could to stoke tensions in the region). They are Arabs.

Also, black Israeli Jews, of which there are many, will be shocked to find out that they are in fact white (Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews make the Jewish world very ethically and racially diverse).

I support the right of Palestinians to a state of their own, and the right of Palestinian children and youth to a future of dignity and hope. But don’t start with this “deeper roots in the land” discussion, because history doesn’t lie, antisemites do.

Are you saying that only Jews have ancestors who were part of the land and purely descended from the tribes in the region in ancient times and they remain to this day - no matter the intervening thousands of years or where they have lived or with whom they intermarried with in the diaspora -
the only people who have maintained a continuous presence in the land. They are its indigenous, original inhabitants?

Are you saying it is anti-Semitic if someone suggests there were other peoples there too long before the Ottomans, whose various descendants are still there mixed in with later comers?

Are you suggesting that history exists as a fact that modern people can unravel with certainty if it is from the Jewish point of view, but otherwise artificial like something concocted by Russia?

I am a bit tired and may have misread, but what you said came across oddly imo apart from saying that Israeli Jews are ethnically and racially diverse.

Lalaloveya · 01/10/2024 20:31

Yes I think it's a misunderstanding to interpret it as Hamas wanting to kill hostages before giving them back. That's clearly not what's being said.

Anyway as it says in the article, Israel was never going to accept a ceasefire so the whole negotiation was pointless. Like every other one in the last year.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 01/10/2024 19:59

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 16:44

https://nypost.com/2024/05/06/world-news/hamas-changed-ceasefire-deal-to-count-dead-hostages-report/

This is not where I saw it originally, and this is not a publication I normally read, but it was to do with the proposed ceasefire back in May as indicated in this article. I originally saw it on Times of Israel I think, but don't know how to find old articles without scrolling through every single one! I'm not the kind of person who saves these kinds of links for future use. It was also shared on at least one of the many, many threads on this board at the time but again couldn't tell you which one. Maybe someone else reading this will remember what I'm talking about and be able to share a more appropriate link than NY Post.

Edited

That was in response to:

ScrollingLeaves · Today 16:28

In one of the ceasefire negotiations this past year, Hamas were trying to negotiate that they would essentially be allowed to murder some of the hostages in cold blood before returning them (Humdingerydoo)

Though unrelated to this invasion, please would you post a link regarding this as I don’t recall reading about that?

Thank you @Humdingerydoo for bothering to find that. I can get the idea from that New York Post link.

I do remember the actual Hamas demand and its context early last May, but interpret its spirit differently from you.

Salmoney · 01/10/2024 19:23

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 19:20

Thanks @SharonEllis !

I don't expect any actual feasible solutions from anyone on here - I was hoping my question would at least get them thinking though, but no. Too firmly stuck in the "it's all Israel's fault" camp and unwilling to consider that it might actually be quite a bit more complicated than that. Being so incredibly simplistic about it all isn't helpful, but they don't want to be helpful or to figure out solutions, they just want someone to blame. Oh well.

Because a lot of people believe propaganda and don't apply critical thought unfortunately. You won't change their minds.

SharonEllis · 01/10/2024 19:22

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 19:20

Thanks @SharonEllis !

I don't expect any actual feasible solutions from anyone on here - I was hoping my question would at least get them thinking though, but no. Too firmly stuck in the "it's all Israel's fault" camp and unwilling to consider that it might actually be quite a bit more complicated than that. Being so incredibly simplistic about it all isn't helpful, but they don't want to be helpful or to figure out solutions, they just want someone to blame. Oh well.

Many of us are grateful for your knowledgeable posts.

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 19:20

Thanks @SharonEllis !

I don't expect any actual feasible solutions from anyone on here - I was hoping my question would at least get them thinking though, but no. Too firmly stuck in the "it's all Israel's fault" camp and unwilling to consider that it might actually be quite a bit more complicated than that. Being so incredibly simplistic about it all isn't helpful, but they don't want to be helpful or to figure out solutions, they just want someone to blame. Oh well.

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 19:15

Ah, the first paragraph there was a quote. Not my words!

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 19:15

The 7/10 attacks could be attributed to the occupation of Gaza and the way the Palestinians have been treated. That's not to say that there aren't states that want to get rid off Israel but the decades long treatment of the Palestinians means Israel doesn't have clean hands.

It absolutely boggles my mind that anyone would attribute what happened last October to the actions of a legitimate state.