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Conflict in the Middle East

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SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 14:19

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 14:07

@HelenHen @Lettherebejustice & anyone else denying the antisemitic motivation of the 7 October attacks. This is the testimony Quaid Farhan Alkadi, one of several Bedouins attacked:

'The terrorists tested Alkadi to make sure he was Muslim, asking him about chapters in the Koran and the number of prayers per day. “I spoke to them in Arabic. I told them I was a Muslim,” he said. “They saw that it was okay, and then they told me, ‘Take us in your car to where there are Jews.'”
Asked by the interviewer what he thought at that moment, Alkadi said, “I was ready to die. I wouldn’t point out a Jew, not even a cat. The whole community there are good friends of mine.”
www.thejc.com/news/world/i-was-shot-by-hamas-for-not-pointing-out-where-the-jews-were-says-rescued-bedouin-hostage-k3ppk9ki

Also to @SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice

I cannot be possible that people on this thread are arguing that 7 October was not antisemitic.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 02/10/2024 14:19

The point is that Israel is the only place where Jewish people are safe. No other nation state is a safe place for Jewish people to live. That’s why antizionism is antisemitism.

I think Jewish people in the US are objectively at least as safe if not more so than Jewish people in Israel. Certainly, if you look at the odds of dying in a terror attack, you are better off in the US than in Israel. Then, in terms of feeling safe, which Jewish child is more likely to be familiar with needing and using safe rooms and bomb shelters? An Israeli one or an American one? I don’t think Jewish Israelis feel safe at all, and I think that feeling is one reason why their military are going way overboard on the retaliation and counterattacks.

I think what you say is more of an aspirational goal for Israel, a vision of a golden future than any reality since its founding.

HelenHen · 02/10/2024 14:17

I'm really not getting into that with you. It's fine if you believe it. However the attack was against Israel.

StandingSideBySide · 02/10/2024 14:09

YoYoYoYo12345 · 02/10/2024 14:01

Iran fires missiles indiscriminately, even I to the west bank killing a Palestinian man.

At least with Israel taking on hezbollah they are obviously targeted attacks. Hamas also doesn't give 2p for civilians.

If you’ve been watching the news for the past year you can’t have missed all the attacks on the civilian population of Gaza.
Israel say they are not targeting civilians and do exactly the opposite. Netanyahu said he considers ALL Palestinians to be Hamas and he’s doing exactly the same again now.

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 14:07

@HelenHen @Lettherebejustice & anyone else denying the antisemitic motivation of the 7 October attacks. This is the testimony Quaid Farhan Alkadi, one of several Bedouins attacked:

'The terrorists tested Alkadi to make sure he was Muslim, asking him about chapters in the Koran and the number of prayers per day. “I spoke to them in Arabic. I told them I was a Muslim,” he said. “They saw that it was okay, and then they told me, ‘Take us in your car to where there are Jews.'”
Asked by the interviewer what he thought at that moment, Alkadi said, “I was ready to die. I wouldn’t point out a Jew, not even a cat. The whole community there are good friends of mine.”
www.thejc.com/news/world/i-was-shot-by-hamas-for-not-pointing-out-where-the-jews-were-says-rescued-bedouin-hostage-k3ppk9ki

YoYoYoYo12345 · 02/10/2024 14:06

BillySnuz · 01/10/2024 17:59

Are you ok @SometimesCalmPerson? Because you don’t seem like you’re ok.

Firstly, a couple of questions for you. What language do Israelis speak, and where does it come from? (Answer: Hebrew - Ancient Israel. Hebrew has its origins in the Semantic language group known as the Canaanite group, which has its written records dating back to the second millennium BCE).

Now answer this question: what language do Palestinians speak and where does that language come from? (Answer: Arabic - this language can can be traced back to the Arabian Peninsula, where it developed over time from a group of dialects spoken by the nomadic Bedouin tribes - the earliest form of Arabic, known as Old Arabic, dates back to the 4th century CE).

The connection between the Jewish people and Israel goes back long before the birth of either Christianity or Islam. Jews created a society there in the days of Joshua, a kingdom in the days of Saul, and a nation with Jerusalem as its capital in the days of King David - more than 3,000 years ago.

Jews are the only people who ever created a nation state there. At all other times in the past 3,000 years it was merely an administrative district in an empire whose centre was elsewhere: the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Alexandrian, Roman and Byzantine empires, the Crusaders of the Holy Roman Empire, the various Muslim empires such as the Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, Mamluks and Ottomans - and finally, the British. Jews are the only people who have maintained a continuous presence in the land. They are its indigenous, original inhabitants.

Let’s compare and contrast this to the other side shall we? Remember, at the end of the day Palestinians are Arabs - there is no such thing as a separate Palestinian people, no matter what dodgy, ahistorical nonsense some TikTok accounts spew out. The Gazans are mainly Egyptian (their surnames bear this out). The Israeli Arabs that decided to stay after 1947 had most likely lived on the land for centuries. And the ones who now live under Palestinian Authority rule in the West Bank are made up of peoples who came to the land from all over the Ottoman Empire. Again, you can tell by the surnames. You can also tell by studying Ottoman and British Mandate census accounts and records. It’s all verifiable.

And here’s the thing, because the British Mandate was so well run and there was a good chance a person could get employment, there was lots of legal and illegal immigration from Syria, Lebanon and Egypt. Under the Ottomans, the population of Palestine generally was small. Jerusalem, for obvious reasons, was an exception. Palestine as a nation and ‘population’ is relatively recent construct. They didn’t even start calling themselves Palestinians until the mid-ish 1960s, it was the Soviet Union that even gave them the idea (because the Soviet Union was rabidly antisemitic and did everything it could to stoke tensions in the region). They are Arabs.

Also, black Israeli Jews, of which there are many, will be shocked to find out that they are in fact white (Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews make the Jewish world very ethically and racially diverse).

I support the right of Palestinians to a state of their own, and the right of Palestinian children and youth to a future of dignity and hope. But don’t start with this “deeper roots in the land” discussion, because history doesn’t lie, antisemites do.

Very good points which will be ignored.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 02/10/2024 14:05

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 13:55

Im sorry but you are just incorrect. Just because there was a mix of people there (as you would expect at an Israeli event) does not mean that the overriding motivation was not anti-Jewish and certainly does not ignore those who were killed or taken hostage who were not Jewish. That you are persisting with this denial is deeply offensive.

It doesn’t mean that the over-riding motivation was anti Jewish either though.

Especially in light of how the Hamas terrorists themselves spoke and acted. They did not spare any man, woman or child for being a fellow Muslim, or a Christian or a Buddhist…they killed them too.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 02/10/2024 14:03

BillySnuz · 01/10/2024 17:59

Are you ok @SometimesCalmPerson? Because you don’t seem like you’re ok.

Firstly, a couple of questions for you. What language do Israelis speak, and where does it come from? (Answer: Hebrew - Ancient Israel. Hebrew has its origins in the Semantic language group known as the Canaanite group, which has its written records dating back to the second millennium BCE).

Now answer this question: what language do Palestinians speak and where does that language come from? (Answer: Arabic - this language can can be traced back to the Arabian Peninsula, where it developed over time from a group of dialects spoken by the nomadic Bedouin tribes - the earliest form of Arabic, known as Old Arabic, dates back to the 4th century CE).

The connection between the Jewish people and Israel goes back long before the birth of either Christianity or Islam. Jews created a society there in the days of Joshua, a kingdom in the days of Saul, and a nation with Jerusalem as its capital in the days of King David - more than 3,000 years ago.

Jews are the only people who ever created a nation state there. At all other times in the past 3,000 years it was merely an administrative district in an empire whose centre was elsewhere: the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Alexandrian, Roman and Byzantine empires, the Crusaders of the Holy Roman Empire, the various Muslim empires such as the Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, Mamluks and Ottomans - and finally, the British. Jews are the only people who have maintained a continuous presence in the land. They are its indigenous, original inhabitants.

Let’s compare and contrast this to the other side shall we? Remember, at the end of the day Palestinians are Arabs - there is no such thing as a separate Palestinian people, no matter what dodgy, ahistorical nonsense some TikTok accounts spew out. The Gazans are mainly Egyptian (their surnames bear this out). The Israeli Arabs that decided to stay after 1947 had most likely lived on the land for centuries. And the ones who now live under Palestinian Authority rule in the West Bank are made up of peoples who came to the land from all over the Ottoman Empire. Again, you can tell by the surnames. You can also tell by studying Ottoman and British Mandate census accounts and records. It’s all verifiable.

And here’s the thing, because the British Mandate was so well run and there was a good chance a person could get employment, there was lots of legal and illegal immigration from Syria, Lebanon and Egypt. Under the Ottomans, the population of Palestine generally was small. Jerusalem, for obvious reasons, was an exception. Palestine as a nation and ‘population’ is relatively recent construct. They didn’t even start calling themselves Palestinians until the mid-ish 1960s, it was the Soviet Union that even gave them the idea (because the Soviet Union was rabidly antisemitic and did everything it could to stoke tensions in the region). They are Arabs.

Also, black Israeli Jews, of which there are many, will be shocked to find out that they are in fact white (Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews make the Jewish world very ethically and racially diverse).

I support the right of Palestinians to a state of their own, and the right of Palestinian children and youth to a future of dignity and hope. But don’t start with this “deeper roots in the land” discussion, because history doesn’t lie, antisemites do.

@BillySnuz

Jews are the only people who ever created a nation state there
The formation of nation states is a relatively new evolution in human society so this isn’t proof that Jewish people were in the region before Palestinians. The Ancient Greeks never had a nation state, but you’d be hard pressed to declare that they weren’t a people who were indigenous to Greece.

Prior to the migration of the Israelites into the region of Yehudah ( later named Judaea after Yehuda) around 1200BC, there were Canaanite kingdoms and chiefdoms all over the region of Palestine.

The city of Jericho was founded around 7000 BC. The region started out with fortified cities and petty kingdoms, similar to Ancient Greece. One Kingdom was the Kingdom of Canaan. Which as you know, the Israelites invaded and conquered. But the point is that when this happened, the entire region of these city states and petty kingdoms was being referred to as Filistin (Palestine) by the ancient Greeks and Egyptians.

Over time, yes different empires conquered the region, including the Kingdom of Judea which replaced the Kingdom of Canaan, but the name of the larger region as Palestine (in different permutations) endured for over 4,000 years.

what language do Palestinians speak and where does that language come from? (Answer: Arabic - this language can can be traced back to the Arabian Peninsula,
Language spoken as a result of conquest and colonisation do not turn inhabitants into the ethnicity that conquered and colonised them. There are plenty of Palestinian Israeli citizens that do speak Hebrew today right now. Yes, there was an Islamic empire in the region from 600-1920 CE or so but there is no evidence this was accompanied by ethnic cleansing such that the inhabitants were entirely replaced by waves of Arabic peoples. Just like the latinised Gauls, Goth and Hispanic were not magically ethnically replaced by Italian Romans for speaking Latin for so long that even today they speak a language based on Latin and not whatever they spoke before Roman conquest. Surnames are no indicator as these are often modified into the new official language rather than kept original. Even the name Yehudah then Judah, is now written as Joshua because names shift in response to changes in official languages.

In fact DNA studies and archaeological evidence have proven consistently that Jewish Israelites and Muslim/Christian Palestinians are both descended from the original Semitic peoples of the Levant.

Both are indigenous, which is why a two state solution where the region is shared is the most just solution to the returning Jewish and the never left Palestinians.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 02/10/2024 14:01

maudelovesharold · 01/10/2024 23:53

Let's hope civilian casualties are kept to a minimum though ....

Yeah….right. The chances of civilian casualties being kept to a minimum are, as I’m sure we all know, precisely zero. The civilians will bear the brunt, as always. Unfortunately not all civilians have the protection of bunkers and iron domes.

Iran fires missiles indiscriminately, even I to the west bank killing a Palestinian man.

At least with Israel taking on hezbollah they are obviously targeted attacks. Hamas also doesn't give 2p for civilians.

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 13:55

HelenHen · 02/10/2024 13:17

No it's not the point.

Nova was an attack on Israel... absolutely. Innocent Israelis... absolutely. Despicable terrorist attack... absolutely.

However it was not a Jewish only event. So it was not 'an attack on Jews being Jews'. Everything else, yes... but that statement ignores all the other victims and is just incorrect.

Im sorry but you are just incorrect. Just because there was a mix of people there (as you would expect at an Israeli event) does not mean that the overriding motivation was not anti-Jewish and certainly does not ignore those who were killed or taken hostage who were not Jewish. That you are persisting with this denial is deeply offensive.

CopperTurquoise · 02/10/2024 13:25

What percentage of Israeli population have Jewish ethnicity? 70? 80?

What percentage of Holocaust victims were Jewish? It’s so important to acknowledge and understand that pogroms are aimed at Jewish people. Doing so does not detract from the fact that other groups were targeted such as the Roma or gay people or the mentally ill. Who benefits from denying these facts?

HelenHen · 02/10/2024 13:17

CopperTurquoise · 02/10/2024 13:09

The point isn’t that Israeli society is comprised solely of Jewish people, look at how mixed Haifa is for example where around 1 in 4 people are Arab. The point is that Israel is the only place where Jewish people are safe. No other nation state is a safe place for Jewish people to live. That’s why antizionism is antisemitism.

I think we’ve established that Europe isn’t safe. The UK is not safe. There is nowhere else in the whole world where Jewish people are safe. It is safer to be in Israel under bombardment than it is to live anywhere else because the Israeli government alone can be trusted to protect and defend Jewish people and all other citizens. Druze, Christian or Muslim. (Note the freedom of religion that is rare in the region but for many Israelis freedom from religion too.)

No it's not the point.

Nova was an attack on Israel... absolutely. Innocent Israelis... absolutely. Despicable terrorist attack... absolutely.

However it was not a Jewish only event. So it was not 'an attack on Jews being Jews'. Everything else, yes... but that statement ignores all the other victims and is just incorrect.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 02/10/2024 13:17

The answer is really very simple and it is; withdraw from Gaza, stop provoking Hezbollah and Iran, pull out the settlers from the west bank and then sit down and start to negotiate the release of Hostages and a way forward for Palestinians and Israelis to live without violence.

@mouthpipette This & the rest of your post. 🫡

CopperTurquoise · 02/10/2024 13:09

The point isn’t that Israeli society is comprised solely of Jewish people, look at how mixed Haifa is for example where around 1 in 4 people are Arab. The point is that Israel is the only place where Jewish people are safe. No other nation state is a safe place for Jewish people to live. That’s why antizionism is antisemitism.

I think we’ve established that Europe isn’t safe. The UK is not safe. There is nowhere else in the whole world where Jewish people are safe. It is safer to be in Israel under bombardment than it is to live anywhere else because the Israeli government alone can be trusted to protect and defend Jewish people and all other citizens. Druze, Christian or Muslim. (Note the freedom of religion that is rare in the region but for many Israelis freedom from religion too.)

CallMeMammy · 02/10/2024 13:09

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:59

I am not scrubbing them out but Hamas's motivation was not to wipe out Thai people. In fact the people who tend to 'scrub out' other ethnicities in Israel are those who are anti-Israel. Their narrative tends to focus on Israel as an ethno-centric white colonial state. Those who umderstand Israel better talk about its diversity

I have read in numerous news outlets that this was Hamas motivation.

Hamas justified its attack as a response to what it calls Israeli crimes against the Palestinian people.
These include security raids on Islam's third holiest site - the al-Aqsa Mosque, in occupied East Jerusalem - and Jewish settlement activity in the occupied West Bank.

Hamas also wants thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israel to be freed and for an end to the blockade of the Gaza Strip by Israel and Egypt - something both countries say is for security.

This is from a BBC article https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67039975.amp

I tend trust what reputable news outlets say over people on forums/Twitter or whatever. You of course are entitled to take your news from where ever you like.

A woman and child sitting next to a ruined building in Rafah (January 2024)

What is Hamas and why is it fighting with Israel in Gaza?

Why did Hamas attack Israel, and what has happened in Gaza since the 7 October raid?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67039975.amp

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:59

CallMeMammy · 02/10/2024 12:50

Or the 32 Thai workers who were killed and the 22 who were taken hostage. It saddens me how other ethnicities and religions are often scrubbed out of conversations when it comes to Israel. There are 10s of 1000s of Thai workers in Israel doing hard manual work for low wages, they contribute a lot to the country but often seem to be left out of the conversation and forgotten about when it comes to the atrocities of Oct 7 and beyond.

Edited

I am not scrubbing them out but Hamas's motivation was not to wipe out Thai people. In fact the people who tend to 'scrub out' other ethnicities in Israel are those who are anti-Israel. Their narrative tends to focus on Israel as an ethno-centric white colonial state. Those who umderstand Israel better talk about its diversity

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:55

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:54

Read the testimonies, watch the footage. It is not possible to be this ignorant a year on.

Se also @HelenHen

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:54

Lettherebejustice · 02/10/2024 12:36

It was an attack on Israelis and anyone living in Israel. If it was an attack purely on Jews then why would Muslims also be killed and abducted and kept hostage?

Read the testimonies, watch the footage. It is not possible to be this ignorant a year on.

HelenHen · 02/10/2024 12:52

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:30

But why are you pinpointing Israel as the cause of the escalation? The escalation was 7 October. Iarael was normalising relations with various ME states - the states who could have helped broker a more robust peace settlement. Iran-backed terrorists conducted an attack of the most extreme ferocity seen in recent times on innocent citizens. This was an attack directly on Jews for being Jews & anyone else who got in the way. It was not an attack on military or security targets but on kibbutzim & festival goers. Iran-backed Hezbollah attacked tbe next day as an act of solidarity. No rational person would argue that Israel did not have the right to respond & drstroy those who mounted that attack. Even if you might argue the response has not always been proportionate how is Israel responsible for the escalation?

Were all attendees of the festival, and all victims, Jewish? Yes, I understand that most probably were, but was it a Jewish only event? I'm not being funny but I thought it was an open festival.

That's in response to your "an attack directly on Jews for being Jews".

CallMeMammy · 02/10/2024 12:50

Lettherebejustice · 02/10/2024 12:36

It was an attack on Israelis and anyone living in Israel. If it was an attack purely on Jews then why would Muslims also be killed and abducted and kept hostage?

Or the 32 Thai workers who were killed and the 22 who were taken hostage. It saddens me how other ethnicities and religions are often scrubbed out of conversations when it comes to Israel. There are 10s of 1000s of Thai workers in Israel doing hard manual work for low wages, they contribute a lot to the country but often seem to be left out of the conversation and forgotten about when it comes to the atrocities of Oct 7 and beyond.

Lettherebejustice · 02/10/2024 12:36

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:30

But why are you pinpointing Israel as the cause of the escalation? The escalation was 7 October. Iarael was normalising relations with various ME states - the states who could have helped broker a more robust peace settlement. Iran-backed terrorists conducted an attack of the most extreme ferocity seen in recent times on innocent citizens. This was an attack directly on Jews for being Jews & anyone else who got in the way. It was not an attack on military or security targets but on kibbutzim & festival goers. Iran-backed Hezbollah attacked tbe next day as an act of solidarity. No rational person would argue that Israel did not have the right to respond & drstroy those who mounted that attack. Even if you might argue the response has not always been proportionate how is Israel responsible for the escalation?

It was an attack on Israelis and anyone living in Israel. If it was an attack purely on Jews then why would Muslims also be killed and abducted and kept hostage?

Kindatired · 02/10/2024 12:34

@BillySnuz I think you have been influenced by “From Times Immemorial” by Joan Peters?

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:30

yummyscummymummy01 · 02/10/2024 09:49

It's a terrifying situation. Whilst I sympathise with a country having the right to defend itself the question with Israel has always been how proportionate their response is. The slaughter in Gaza, and the Wests support of it, has made that region and all the country's involved less safe. Israel now seem to be acting with no regard for the views of its allies and feels dangerously out of control to me.
Please don't respond to this by telling me to read up on the history of the Middle East. I'm well aware of it, and the endless cycle of death and hatred and racism will only continue with the death of even more people.
There aren't any easy answers but this current escalation is definitely not the right one.

But why are you pinpointing Israel as the cause of the escalation? The escalation was 7 October. Iarael was normalising relations with various ME states - the states who could have helped broker a more robust peace settlement. Iran-backed terrorists conducted an attack of the most extreme ferocity seen in recent times on innocent citizens. This was an attack directly on Jews for being Jews & anyone else who got in the way. It was not an attack on military or security targets but on kibbutzim & festival goers. Iran-backed Hezbollah attacked tbe next day as an act of solidarity. No rational person would argue that Israel did not have the right to respond & drstroy those who mounted that attack. Even if you might argue the response has not always been proportionate how is Israel responsible for the escalation?

BillySnuz · 02/10/2024 11:58

ScrollingLeaves · 01/10/2024 21:32

Are you saying that only Jews have ancestors who were part of the land and purely descended from the tribes in the region in ancient times and they remain to this day - no matter the intervening thousands of years or where they have lived or with whom they intermarried with in the diaspora -
the only people who have maintained a continuous presence in the land. They are its indigenous, original inhabitants?

Are you saying it is anti-Semitic if someone suggests there were other peoples there too long before the Ottomans, whose various descendants are still there mixed in with later comers?

Are you suggesting that history exists as a fact that modern people can unravel with certainty if it is from the Jewish point of view, but otherwise artificial like something concocted by Russia?

I am a bit tired and may have misread, but what you said came across oddly imo apart from saying that Israeli Jews are ethnically and racially diverse.

To pick up where I left off, for part II:

Jews are a nation — not to be confused with a modern “nation state” (e.g. the United States, Canada). That is, a community of people with a shared language, history, ethnicity, culture, and/or territory. They have a collective identity as a singular people (i.e. the Jewish People, the People or Children of Israel) that goes back 3000 years.

Case in point: the term “Jew” is a modern English sixteenth century translation of the Old English word “Iudeisc,” which in itself was a translation of the Latin word “Iudeas,” meaning a citizen of the Kingdom of Judah (930 BCE-587/6 BCE) or a citizen of Judea (586/7 BCE-136 CE). In most languages — including Hebrew, the ancestral language of Jews — the term “Jew” is quite literally still the same word as “Judean.” (As in Judea, that place we now call The West Bank.

So their identity as a nation very much surpasses their identity as a religious group. In fact, the understanding of Jews as a “religious group” is a rather recent development in history, dating back to the French Revolution and the Enlightenment.

(Also another thing, I see a lot of MNs get confused about this aspect often, so to clear this up - whether a Jew believes in Judaism or not is fully irrelevant, because they are still a member of their nation).

The Jewish People are the direct descendants of a confederation of Hebrew tribes that lived in the region of modern-day Israel/Palestine during the Bronze Age. For 3000 years, they have called themselves a tribe. In fact, the term “tribe” in English comes from the Old French “tribu,” which was first used to describe “one of the twelve divisions of the ancient Hebrews.”

None of this is a matter of religious belief or imagination; their tribal identity and ancestry is among the most well-documented in the world. Genetic studies on Jews clearly indicate ancient Canaanite heritage (the Hebrew tribes emerged from Canaanite tribes). Much of their culture still reflects ancient Canaanite culture; e.g., Hebrew is the only Canaanite language that still exists to this day, and many Hebrew words still allude to the ancient Canaanite gods (for instance, the generic Hebrew word for god — as opposed to THE god — is “el.” El was one of the two most important gods in the Canaanite pantheon).

Because of imperial conquest and colonization, most Jews don’t know which of the Hebrew tribes their ancestors came from, though if you are Jewish, you most likely descend from the tribe of Benjamin, Judah, or Levi. Ethiopian Jews claim descent from the tribe of Dan. Samaritans, who are Israelites but not Jews, descend from the tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, or Levi.

Everyone is indigenous to somewhere (or somewheres). Not all peoples are Indigenous Peoples.

The United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues defines Indigenous Peoples as the following: (1) self-identification as Indigenous Peoples; (2) historical continuity with pre-colonial and pre-settler societies; (3) strong link to territories and surrounding natural resources; (4) distinct social, economic, or political systems; (5) distinct language, culture, and beliefs; (6) non-dominant groups of society; (7) resolve to maintain and reproduce their ancestral environments and systems as distinctive peoples and communities. The Jewish people tick every one of these boxes.

Indigeneity is primarily about land-based, cultural continuity that predates colonialism and imperialism. Their culture; their belief system; their language; their social systems (e.g. Kohanim, or the inherited Jewish priestly class, not to be confused with rabbis); the Jewish people’s understanding of themselves as a people, as a tribe, and as a nation: all of these characteristics long predate the foreign conquests of the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Macedonians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Crusaders, Ottomans, and British.

The fact that they’ve been able to preserve the culture and identity of their ancestors in the face of so much conquest, oppression, ethnic cleansing, slavery, massacres, genocide, spiritual repression, and more is nothing short of remarkable and an example of Indigenous resistance.

An ethnic group or ethnicity is a social group that shares common ancestry, culture, traditions, history, language, and/or religion, as well as a plethora of other commonalities. Ethnic groups have what is known as an “ethnogenesis,” meaning the point at which an ethnic group forms or develops. For example, the ethnogenesis of the ancestors of today’s Jews, the Israelites, can be attributed to the point in time during which a confederation of Hebrew tribes united to establish the Kingdom of Israel some 3000 years ago.

Ethnic groups can both merge (known as a pan-ethnicity) or split into groups (known as sub-ethnicity). Because of their forced displacement, which resulted in geographical distance from each other, various Jewish sub-ethnic groups formed. Some examples of Jewish sub-ethnic groups are Ashkenazim, Sepharadim, and Mizrahim.

This bit is germane to what you were querying: For thousands of years, Jews have practiced endogamy — that is, marrying within the ethnic group. Because they have had such a closed genetic pool for so long, Jewish DNA is among the most studied in the world.

And also, another significant factor that plays into all of this - Judaism differs from the other Abrahamic monotheisms, Christianity and Islam, in that it is the only one of the three that never created or sought to create an empire. So despite the fact that while most Jews were forcibly displaced from their homeland by invading empires at various points throughout history, they didn’t go out into the world to conquer and appropriate from others (again, see the Christian and Islamic empires who did do this), and as a consequence there was a lot less “mingling” (for want of a better word) with other peoples or ethnic groups. Instead, Jewish culture, spirituality, and identity remained tethered to the Land of Israel through prayer, language, customs, and more. This is evident in things such as their holidays, which celebrate the earth of the Land of Israel; the Hebrew calendar, which follows the agricultural cycle of Israel/Palestine; their prayers, which call to Israel; the preservation of the Hebrew language in various Diasporic dialects such as Yiddish and Ladino; etc.

Hope that helps.

BillySnuz · 02/10/2024 11:35

Are you saying that only Jews have ancestors who were part of the land and purely descended from the tribes in the region in ancient times and they remain to this day…

No, not at all but ancestral claims to a particular land are separate from being indigenous to a particular land. No one would deny that Palestinians don’t have claims (that should be honoured through the establishment of a two state solution), but their link with the land is much, much, much more recent. In the 600s, the Arab Islamic Empire conquered the Land of Israel. Today’s Palestinians are the descendants of converted Jews, Arabs that arrived to the Holy Land at various points throughout history, as well as others who’ve passed through via migration and colonialism. Palestinian national identity, independent of a greater Arab identity, dates back to the 20th century!

—no matter the intervening thousands of years or where they have lived or with whom they intermarried with in the diaspora -

This is actually a bit of a complex issue, I’ll address this separately, it requires a lot of explaining.

Are you saying it is anti-Semitic if someone suggests there were other peoples there too long before the Ottomans, whose various descendants are still there mixed in with later comers?

Um, no. But rewriting or falsifying history in a way that denies the Jewish people’s connection to the Land of Israel is antisemitic. You see it every weekend at the hate marchers in London that take over the Westend, making it a no go zone for Jews: the cranks waving signs that claim Israel is a colonial presence in the Middle East. It is nothing of the kind.

Are you suggesting that history exists as a fact that modern people can unravel with certainty if it is from the Jewish point of view, but otherwise artificial like something concocted by Russia?

Eh, what? There is fierce historiographical debate concerning what history actually is (see E. H. Carr’s “What is History?” or Richard Evans’ “In Defence of History”). Buy in layman’s terms, history is written from the primary and secondary sources which are held in archives. My father and my brother are actually historians themselves. Sadly I only hold a humble BA in History and Russian (language). I’m not academics like them but I am across how it it is put together. If you think you have a better, more compelling counter argument based on what is written down, then go for it. The only thing I would say is that the historical archives held by most Arab states are completely closed and no one is allowed in (ever, now or in the future). Which is, I suppose…convenient.

Also, you picked up on the Russia thing. Actually it was the Soviet Union at the time. But it’s true, the Soviet Union was in the business of sponsoring anti-colonial, and other Marxist liberation movements to expand its sphere of influence. Given that Israel was both the only democratic nation in the Middle East and was quickly drawing closer to many Western powers, the Soviet Union had a vested interest in destabilizing the small nation. As such, in 1964, the Soviet Union latched onto the PLO, so much so that its original charter was drafted in Moscow by 422 KGB-approved Palestinian representatives. As I alluded to above, I’m a Russian speaker and I used to live in Russia. I have studied this a lot when I was at university there (late naughties).

To answer the rest of your query I’m going to do a part two, just to make this all a bit more digestible.