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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

To understand the escalation in Lebanon, we must confront what Israelis are thinking

381 replies

Gunnersforthecup · 28/09/2024 09:44

Rather good and well-informed article in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/28/escalation-lebanon-israelis-benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-hezbollah

"It is almost certainly true that the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has political reasons for prolonging the conflict. But while a majority of Israelis would probably like a different prime minister, many don’t want to stop the war until they think that both Hamas and more particularly Hezbollah – which has tied its actions directly to Gaza – have been neutralised as serious threats.

And that is because behind both groups they see an Iran that is dedicated to their destruction...

This isn’t simply about the US and its western allies. This time the Gulf states – and most of all Saudi Arabia – are going to be key actors. The prize of normalisation with Israel has not disappeared. But the price has gone up. It will certainly include the effective containment of Iran and its allies – and an answer to real, not simply declarative, Palestinian statehood. And this time we need to make it stick. Otherwise the pain we are seeing now will not simply not go away. It will get a lot worse."

To understand the escalation in Lebanon, we must confront what Israelis are thinking | John Jenkins

Netanyahu has his own reasons for prolonging the conflict, but many Israelis still want to see Hamas and Hezbollah neutralised, says former British diplomat Sir John Jenkins

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/28/escalation-lebanon-israelis-benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-hezbollah

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7
EasternStandard · 28/09/2024 14:18

StupidFarang · 28/09/2024 14:16

Also Iran and Syria effectively control Lebanon. The Lebanese government is on a tight rope and no even seems them as a significant party in this whole conflict.
Hezbollah is well better armed than the Lebanese army. It's no match.

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This is a factor

I did see that the US had tried to support the Lebanese army at one point with funding but really make them strong enough and what would stop another Sudan happening?

Another country were absolutely terrible things are going on atm

YoYoYoYo12345 · 28/09/2024 14:17

Dulra · 28/09/2024 10:04

I completely understand why Israelis would want Hezbollah and Hamas neutralised. I am not sure many rational thinking people wouldn't. They are evil barbaric unpredictable terrorist organisations that have no place in a modern progressive world. What I can't understand or accept is the complete disregard for innocent human lives in achieving that aim. All innocent lives matter and need to be protected

It would be better for all if Hamas and Hezbollah were neutralised. I agree there are too many innocents caught in in this. The more targeted attacks against Hezbollah are the way forward.

StupidFarang · 28/09/2024 14:16

blackcherryconserve · 28/09/2024 14:11

Possibly because Hezbollah has infiltrated itself into the Lebanese government.

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Also Iran and Syria effectively control Lebanon. The Lebanese government is on a tight rope and no even seems them as a significant party in this whole conflict.
Hezbollah is well better armed than the Lebanese army. It's no match.

blackcherryconserve · 28/09/2024 14:15

StupidFarang · 28/09/2024 14:06

The question was Israelis, not Israel as in the government. Be good if Iranians were asked if they want an ideological war with Israel.

There's a genuine conflcit between the Palestinains and Israelis which needs to be resolved. There is actually NO conflict between Iran and Israel or Lebanon and Israel. It's all ideology and geopolitics. I've met many Iranians over the years and I have good Iranian friends, they have no problem with Israel whatsoever.

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You are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think there is no conflict between Israel and Iran. Hamas and Hezbollah are Iranian proxies.iran is supplying all the warfare to the terrorists

SharonEllis · 28/09/2024 14:14

StupidFarang · 28/09/2024 14:06

The question was Israelis, not Israel as in the government. Be good if Iranians were asked if they want an ideological war with Israel.

There's a genuine conflcit between the Palestinains and Israelis which needs to be resolved. There is actually NO conflict between Iran and Israel or Lebanon and Israel. It's all ideology and geopolitics. I've met many Iranians over the years and I have good Iranian friends, they have no problem with Israel whatsoever.

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Iranian dissidents are hugely supportive of Israel. They know what they're up against.

blackcherryconserve · 28/09/2024 14:11

Doublesidedstickytape · 28/09/2024 13:44

Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation. Why aren’t we hearing anything from the Labanese government?

Possibly because Hezbollah has infiltrated itself into the Lebanese government.

StupidFarang · 28/09/2024 14:11

midgetastic · 28/09/2024 13:10

How to defend yourself?

Make Love not war

Share tea and cake

Discover your common humanity as the backdrop to resolve your differences

Back out of Palestine and any other land illegally occupied

All they are doing is increasing the number of people who hate them and would like to see them destroyed- meaning this long running problem will carry on running

Israel withdrew out of Lebanon and got Hezbollah on their doorstep (in violation of security council resolution 1701 to end the 2nd Lebanon War)
Israel withdrew out of Gaza and got Hamas firing missiles and 7/10.

Not sure this precedent of withdrawal in the absence of a stong deal and ironclad security arrangements (like in Sinai) is quite the path to defending yourself. It won't lead to everyone sitting around the campfire and singing kumbaya together.

StupidFarang · 28/09/2024 14:06

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 28/09/2024 14:02

To understand the situation we need to understand how Israel and Iran are thinking.

The question was Israelis, not Israel as in the government. Be good if Iranians were asked if they want an ideological war with Israel.

There's a genuine conflcit between the Palestinains and Israelis which needs to be resolved. There is actually NO conflict between Iran and Israel or Lebanon and Israel. It's all ideology and geopolitics. I've met many Iranians over the years and I have good Iranian friends, they have no problem with Israel whatsoever.

EasternStandard · 28/09/2024 14:05

midgetastic · 28/09/2024 13:10

How to defend yourself?

Make Love not war

Share tea and cake

Discover your common humanity as the backdrop to resolve your differences

Back out of Palestine and any other land illegally occupied

All they are doing is increasing the number of people who hate them and would like to see them destroyed- meaning this long running problem will carry on running

If Hamas had shared tea and cake on October 7th we wouldn't be seeing this escalation now

EasternStandard · 28/09/2024 14:04

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 28/09/2024 14:02

To understand the situation we need to understand how Israel and Iran are thinking.

Well everyone really.

Hezbollah, Lebanon and Iran plus Israel

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 28/09/2024 14:02

To understand the situation we need to understand how Israel and Iran are thinking.

Humdingerydoo · 28/09/2024 13:55

Lalaloveya · 28/09/2024 13:36

If you're talking to me I didn't twist anything. You said "Many terrorists but mostly innocent civilians."

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You were trying to twist my words by changing the definition of targeting so that is would seem as though I was saying Israel targets civilians. Which they don't.

TwigletsAndRadishes · 28/09/2024 13:53

Lalaloveya · 28/09/2024 13:37

I'm just wondering if you acknowledge the occupation and the ongoing mistreatment of Palestinians. If you don't there's no point in answering your question.

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What an absolute cop out of an answer. There is all the point in the world. What I think about those two things is irrelevant and they in no way prevent you from suggesting solutions that eliminate risk to civilians while this war is ongoing. I'm sure we all want to see fewer casualties and far less suffering, hunger and displacement of innocents, especially children, regardless of which side we take.

Doublesidedstickytape · 28/09/2024 13:44

Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation. Why aren’t we hearing anything from the Labanese government?

Lalaloveya · 28/09/2024 13:37

TwigletsAndRadishes · 28/09/2024 13:32

My framing of the question isn't aggressive. It's just a very difficult and virtually impossible question to answer. I don't expect you to have the answer, but you expect Israel to have it.

If you don't know how Israel can defend itself against Hamas while guaranteeing it adheres totally to international humanitarian law at all times, given the circumstances it's working with (Egypt refusing to allow refugees across their border for starters) then just say so. Don't side step the question by bowling different questions at me.

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I'm just wondering if you acknowledge the occupation and the ongoing mistreatment of Palestinians. If you don't there's no point in answering your question.

Lalaloveya · 28/09/2024 13:36

Humdingerydoo · 28/09/2024 13:27

Good attempt at trying to twist my words though! I guess people on here have had almost a year of practice in the art of word-twisting

If you're talking to me I didn't twist anything. You said "Many terrorists but mostly innocent civilians."

SharonEllis · 28/09/2024 13:34

TwigletsAndRadishes · 28/09/2024 13:32

My framing of the question isn't aggressive. It's just a very difficult and virtually impossible question to answer. I don't expect you to have the answer, but you expect Israel to have it.

If you don't know how Israel can defend itself against Hamas while guaranteeing it adheres totally to international humanitarian law at all times, given the circumstances it's working with (Egypt refusing to allow refugees across their border for starters) then just say so. Don't side step the question by bowling different questions at me.

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This. People are so certain they know best. Time & time again they prove they've got nothing except 'turn the other cheek' & think that absolves them from what would happen.

TwigletsAndRadishes · 28/09/2024 13:32

Lalaloveya · 28/09/2024 13:02

The aggressive framing of the question makes it hard to answer. Where do you see the denial of a Palestinian state and the ongoing occupation in all this?

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My framing of the question isn't aggressive. It's just a very difficult and virtually impossible question to answer. I don't expect you to have the answer, but you expect Israel to have it.

If you don't know how Israel can defend itself against Hamas while guaranteeing it adheres totally to international humanitarian law at all times, given the circumstances it's working with (Egypt refusing to allow refugees across their border for starters) then just say so. Don't side step the question by bowling different questions at me.

Humdingerydoo · 28/09/2024 13:27

Good attempt at trying to twist my words though! I guess people on here have had almost a year of practice in the art of word-twisting

Humdingerydoo · 28/09/2024 13:26

Lalaloveya · 28/09/2024 13:24

You answered the question above. They know they're definitely killing civilians. That's targeting. It's not nice but it's just fact.

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No, that's not what targeting means. That's also not how facts work - something has to be true for it to be a fact.

Lalaloveya · 28/09/2024 13:24

Humdingerydoo · 28/09/2024 13:20

No, they're targeting the terrorists who live among the civilians.

Hamas aren't pro-Palestinian, they're anti-Israel. They have done nothing to further the Palestinian cause or to protect Palestinian people. They have done quite the opposite.

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You answered the question above. They know they're definitely killing civilians. That's targeting. It's not nice but it's just fact.

Humdingerydoo · 28/09/2024 13:20

Lalaloveya · 28/09/2024 13:18

Yes. That's the point. They are targeting innocent civilians.

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No, they're targeting the terrorists who live among the civilians.

Hamas aren't pro-Palestinian, they're anti-Israel. They have done nothing to further the Palestinian cause or to protect Palestinian people. They have done quite the opposite.

erwachen · 28/09/2024 13:20

ToBeDetermined · 28/09/2024 12:07

You will be no doubt thrilled to be informed that they abandoned this goal twenty years ago.

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So according to you, Hezbollah are not terrorists and Hamas are not antisemitic. Are Hamas also not terrorists?

Lalaloveya · 28/09/2024 13:18

Humdingerydoo · 28/09/2024 13:14

Many terrorists but mostly innocent civilians. That's the whole difficulty with all this.

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Yes. That's the point. They are targeting innocent civilians.

Humdingerydoo · 28/09/2024 13:16

midgetastic · 28/09/2024 13:10

How to defend yourself?

Make Love not war

Share tea and cake

Discover your common humanity as the backdrop to resolve your differences

Back out of Palestine and any other land illegally occupied

All they are doing is increasing the number of people who hate them and would like to see them destroyed- meaning this long running problem will carry on running

And what about when the other side considers all of Israel to be occupied, as per their official charter? Do you still think Israel should "back out" of the land then?

I agree with your post in theory, but in practice it's a whole lot more complicated than that.

And to be clear, I mean Hamas is the other side not all Palestinians. I don't consider Palestinians the enemy of Israel. I consider genocidal terrorists the enemy of Israel.