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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Pagers and walkie talkies .....audacious and successful strike against terrorists

395 replies

mids2019 · 21/09/2024 05:24

If a large number of members of Al Quaeda or ISIS were killed with a precise attack I think in the West there would be admiration and indeed satisfaction that such a military success had occurred.

However I am disturbed by the reporting of the targeted neutralization of terrorists within Lebanon with even the main stream press virtually describing those struck as civilians and questioning the legality and morality of this! Have we lost our moral compassess?

There were some unfortunate civil an deaths but given the scale of the strike this was a terrible inevitability. However the civil an to combatant rratio was very small in reality as the explosions were kinky d to a personal zone. Yet when we read the press we allow terrorist propaganda calling the events a massacre of even that trumped up word 'genocide' that people seem to love.

If Osama bin Laden had been brought to a local hospital would we have allowed weeping doctors to lament his injuries? Thought not.

OP posts:
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AhNowTed · 22/09/2024 12:16

YoYoYoYo12345 · 22/09/2024 12:02

"they would have nowhere in the Arab world to go, says former U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker. Despite public support for Palestinian rights, in truth nearly every Arab state has long viewed the Palestinians with “fear and loathing,” Crocker says. This is especially true of Egypt, which will continue to refuse to admit Palestinians from across the border, he says."

You left out the part where he acknowledges the grotesque behaviour of the Israeli state.

"We’ve all seen the horror of Gaza, and that’s overshadowed the nightmare of the West Bank, which is appalling in its own right."

YoYoYoYo12345 · 22/09/2024 12:02

"they would have nowhere in the Arab world to go, says former U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker. Despite public support for Palestinian rights, in truth nearly every Arab state has long viewed the Palestinians with “fear and loathing,” Crocker says. This is especially true of Egypt, which will continue to refuse to admit Palestinians from across the border, he says."

Happyher · 22/09/2024 11:57

Tuppence1234 · 22/09/2024 11:26

Exactly and you are saying in your post you know why. Then you know you cannot really compare the situation to Ukraine.

Show quote history

This is why
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/21/why-arab-states-wont-support-palestinians-qa-00142277

Tuppence1234 · 22/09/2024 11:49

AhNowTed · 22/09/2024 11:31

@Tuppence1234 i think you meant to quote the previous poster.

Yes I am not doing well on my quotes at the moment

AhNowTed · 22/09/2024 11:31

@Tuppence1234 i think you meant to quote the previous poster.

Kindatired · 22/09/2024 11:28

@Happyher
How surprising that surrounding states don’t want to be complicit in the ethnic cleansing of their co-religionists. Surprising that they don’t want to become targets of Israel when the the displaced Palestinians fire rockets at the Israelis living in their old homes. Surprised that they don’t welcome hosting various Iran backed militia groups while they struggle to maintain any kind of stable government in an economically and demographically challenging situation.
I don’t find it strange at all

Tuppence1234 · 22/09/2024 11:26

AhNowTed · 22/09/2024 11:24

You realise there are already millions of refugees in the neighbouring countries with no right to return?

Show quote history

Exactly and you are saying in your post you know why. Then you know you cannot really compare the situation to Ukraine.

AhNowTed · 22/09/2024 11:24

Happyher · 22/09/2024 11:19

What I find interesting is that none of the countries, all Muslim, encircling Israel and Gaza seem willing to take in Palestinians as refugees. I know why, but it’s very different to the willingness of European states to take in Ukrainian refugees. The Egyptians have fortified their border to prevent this.

You realise there are already millions of refugees in the neighbouring countries with no right to return?

Happyher · 22/09/2024 11:19

What I find interesting is that none of the countries, all Muslim, encircling Israel and Gaza seem willing to take in Palestinians as refugees. I know why, but it’s very different to the willingness of European states to take in Ukrainian refugees. The Egyptians have fortified their border to prevent this.

Tuppence1234 · 22/09/2024 11:16

mids2019 · 22/09/2024 11:02

Maybe it sometimes may be a good idea to separate from a people that launched October 7th?.in effect anyway if you do have a Palestinian state there is a degree facto separation of peoples due to the existence of the state.

Maybe Israel isn't perfect in some of its military activities but I do think the solution is primarily for people in the region to accept the existence of Israel and by extension it's right to self defence of threatened. The problem again so many of the players in the region including of course Palesrine want Israel not to exist.

I don't think Israel actually wishes to occupy anywhere, they do wish it's people do be secure though. It costs money and lives to permanently have military in a region of land.

I don't think many people a dress how the state of Gaza is meant to work actually. A state needs to function economically so I presume the enclave would need trading relationships with both Egypt or Israel. It would be up to Israel and Egypt to determine what trading relationships would exist and importantly what border controls would exist. I am always a bit confused that if Egypt recognises a Paelstinain state why it doesn't allow the free flow of peaceful Palestinians through the rafah crossing.

Of course this is a moot point as until you get to a state where a charitable Palestinoans stop paying claim to Israel as a whole you will keep going through this cycle of violence with Israel having to suppress terrorist activity from Gaza.

What are you talking about with you Israel not wishing to occupy anywhere? OP- I think you really need to educate yourself a bit here. Look into Israel’s settlement policy in Palestine and at least be aware that you are supporting a country breaking international law here. You seem quite happy to do this, but from reading your posts I think you lack basic knowledge too.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 22/09/2024 11:12

mids2019 · 22/09/2024 11:02

Maybe it sometimes may be a good idea to separate from a people that launched October 7th?.in effect anyway if you do have a Palestinian state there is a degree facto separation of peoples due to the existence of the state.

Maybe Israel isn't perfect in some of its military activities but I do think the solution is primarily for people in the region to accept the existence of Israel and by extension it's right to self defence of threatened. The problem again so many of the players in the region including of course Palesrine want Israel not to exist.

I don't think Israel actually wishes to occupy anywhere, they do wish it's people do be secure though. It costs money and lives to permanently have military in a region of land.

I don't think many people a dress how the state of Gaza is meant to work actually. A state needs to function economically so I presume the enclave would need trading relationships with both Egypt or Israel. It would be up to Israel and Egypt to determine what trading relationships would exist and importantly what border controls would exist. I am always a bit confused that if Egypt recognises a Paelstinain state why it doesn't allow the free flow of peaceful Palestinians through the rafah crossing.

Of course this is a moot point as until you get to a state where a charitable Palestinoans stop paying claim to Israel as a whole you will keep going through this cycle of violence with Israel having to suppress terrorist activity from Gaza.

Shame they cannot all accept each others right to exist, draw up a state boundary and respect those. This would be the best solution for all the innocents in all the countries involved.

But terrorists with a "we will wipe you mentality" will not do this.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 22/09/2024 11:10

Over 100 rockets fired into Israel again by hezbollah. Israel should suck it up or try to target the terrorists attacking them 🤔

AhNowTed · 22/09/2024 11:09

Like I said - pointless.

Original poster
mids2019 · 22/09/2024 11:02

Maybe it sometimes may be a good idea to separate from a people that launched October 7th?.in effect anyway if you do have a Palestinian state there is a degree facto separation of peoples due to the existence of the state.

Maybe Israel isn't perfect in some of its military activities but I do think the solution is primarily for people in the region to accept the existence of Israel and by extension it's right to self defence of threatened. The problem again so many of the players in the region including of course Palesrine want Israel not to exist.

I don't think Israel actually wishes to occupy anywhere, they do wish it's people do be secure though. It costs money and lives to permanently have military in a region of land.

I don't think many people a dress how the state of Gaza is meant to work actually. A state needs to function economically so I presume the enclave would need trading relationships with both Egypt or Israel. It would be up to Israel and Egypt to determine what trading relationships would exist and importantly what border controls would exist. I am always a bit confused that if Egypt recognises a Paelstinain state why it doesn't allow the free flow of peaceful Palestinians through the rafah crossing.

Of course this is a moot point as until you get to a state where a charitable Palestinoans stop paying claim to Israel as a whole you will keep going through this cycle of violence with Israel having to suppress terrorist activity from Gaza.

OP posts:
TheOliveGoose · 22/09/2024 10:44

mids2019 · 22/09/2024 10:15

The calls for a free Palestine though need to be met with thought. A lot of Palestinians in reality aren't going to go down a two state path as it means giving up on any perceived right to land they had pre 1948. The hate filled ideologies of Hamas and Hizbollah are based on the non existence id Israel and therefore for any meaningful peace it is helpful to get rid of both the groups and dent the ideology.

One hope maybe is that a lot of young men in Lebanon will be not willing to join Hizbollah as the group has been shown to be to weak and has been seriously disrupted as an organisation. There are relatively few of any populace that hopefully want to be suicidal martyrs for causes such as the blood thirsty savage Hamas and Hizbollah

Although there are risks of a wider conflagration in the middle east the action from Israel certainly hasn't had major response from Iran or Hizbollah. It also may be the case eventually Israelis can return to the land in the north if it becomes safer.

I think it would be good to get Israel's perspective on how close they are to finishing action in Gaza. Hopefully if more senior leadership, god willing, can be put out of action permanently then a governing group will arise that as pp remarked on isn't genocidal in its ambitions for Israel.

And what kind of 'ideology' do you think leads a country to commit apartheid, to kill 100s of people every year, to torture them in military prisons? A peace filled ideology? A love filled ideology?

Again you aren't acknowledging the horrific things that Israel do, things that aren't rooted in any kind of peace loving ideology. How do you expect occupied people who are forced to live under apartheid and fear for their homes and lives to feel? The way to get rid of the hate is to end occupation, end apartheid, end the killings not to up the levels of suffering. Would you support Palestinians killing Israelis until they display signs of peace loving ideology because that is what you seem to think will work the other way around.

Tuppence1234 · 22/09/2024 10:41

AhNowTed · 22/09/2024 10:40

Once again @mids2019 absolutely no acknowledgment or reflection on Israel's behaviour.

Just more of the same focus on the hatred of the "other side".

Until Israel supporters acknowledge the grotesque injustices Isreal carries out every day, there is no point in talking.

Yes this is true. No point in engaging as these posts are just so repetitive now and not very nuanced.

AhNowTed · 22/09/2024 10:40

Once again @mids2019 absolutely no acknowledgment or reflection on Israel's behaviour.

Just more of the same focus on the hatred of the "other side".

Until Israel supporters acknowledge the grotesque injustices Isreal carries out every day, there is no point in talking.

Tuppence1234 · 22/09/2024 10:33

Well the Palestinians (PLO) did recognise Israel and Israel did recognised PLO as representing the Palestinian people in the Oslo agreement. This agreement broke down and I am sure you are familiar with the many reasons why.

@mids2019 - what is your view on the illegal occupation by Israel ? Land which under the Oslo agreement was give to the Palestinians, but once Netanyahu came into power, he went after.

Original poster
mids2019 · 22/09/2024 10:15

The calls for a free Palestine though need to be met with thought. A lot of Palestinians in reality aren't going to go down a two state path as it means giving up on any perceived right to land they had pre 1948. The hate filled ideologies of Hamas and Hizbollah are based on the non existence id Israel and therefore for any meaningful peace it is helpful to get rid of both the groups and dent the ideology.

One hope maybe is that a lot of young men in Lebanon will be not willing to join Hizbollah as the group has been shown to be to weak and has been seriously disrupted as an organisation. There are relatively few of any populace that hopefully want to be suicidal martyrs for causes such as the blood thirsty savage Hamas and Hizbollah

Although there are risks of a wider conflagration in the middle east the action from Israel certainly hasn't had major response from Iran or Hizbollah. It also may be the case eventually Israelis can return to the land in the north if it becomes safer.

I think it would be good to get Israel's perspective on how close they are to finishing action in Gaza. Hopefully if more senior leadership, god willing, can be put out of action permanently then a governing group will arise that as pp remarked on isn't genocidal in its ambitions for Israel.

OP posts:
TheOliveGoose · 22/09/2024 09:25

TomeTome · 22/09/2024 08:13

To get the three above you have to remove an ideology which wants to remove Israel from existence and how do we go about achieving that?
Or change the behaviour of the rogue state so that it’s existence is a positive thing?

I don't think I've ever seen anyone who is pro Israel admit that perhaps Israels behaviour, the illegal occupying, the apartheid, the stealing of resources, the behaviour of the settlers which is supported by the state, all of the 'whoops sorry we killed someone again but we will deffo look into that for you', the taking people and placing them in detention indefinitely with no trial/no fair trial and torturing them etc might actually contribute to the dislike of Israel in the region and indeed further afield.

It's always they hate Israel just for existing with no reflection on the fact that Israels behaviour has caused untold pain and suffering. You might get an 'ah yeah, I don't agree with occupation' but no real acknowledgement of what the illegal occupation means to the daily lives of those suffering under it and no suggestion of how Palestinians can get out from under it.

Although one thing is certain on this thread they don't seem to think 'targeted' device attacks on the 'legitimate target' that is the IDF is an acceptable way for Palestinians to deal with the situation. That's only something that is acceptable for Israel to do.

StoneofDestiny · 22/09/2024 09:11

Why on earth are there people on here saying ‘Israel is defending its own country’. Israel is an aggressor. Israel has taken over territory illegally and populated it with people shipped in from America in the main - do you listen to their accents when they are interviewed on TV or as members of the IDF?
The Israeli Government think they are untouchable as any criticism of Israel is seen as ‘anti semitic’.
Well - criticism of the Israeli Government is criticism of the Israeli Government - and right now, this is a committing genocide while the world watches.

Kindatired · 22/09/2024 09:08

@Flibflobflibflob
Your point about the evacuation of Northern Israel is a good one. Hezbollah is actually quite targeted. It has killed bout 27 Israeli military and about the same number of civilians since last October. For context , although tragic for those people and their families, 276 Israelis have died in the roads in the same period.
So the Israeli attacks are about relocating the evacuees for political and economic reasons, not primarily to save lives.In fact after an initial outcry there was very little about the hit on the Druze soccer players who were about half the civilians killed by Hezbollah this year

StoneofDestiny · 22/09/2024 08:59

Your moral compass is non existent! Setting these devices to explode was not just an attempt to kill and maim ‘potential supporters of a terrorist group’. The people with these pagers could have been anywhere when they blew up - in a hospital, on a bus or train, in a busy street, at a school, in a place of worship - absolutely anywhere innocent members of the public happened to be.
We need to see the actions of the Israeli government for what is - terrorism, justifying indiscriminate killing, attempting to escalate the war across the middle east and beyond.

Scirocco · 22/09/2024 08:39

"I agree with that, war crimes should not be acceptable. The booby trap rule is about not using things that attract or draw civilians, it doesn’t mean you can’t use bobbly traps. So setting out a stall with free food then bombing it when people come would be a straightforward example."

So, what the IDF were doing with aid in Gaza, then. Lure people in with "here's aid", then open fire on them. Which people rushed to defend at the time.