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Conflict in the Middle East

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ToBeDetermined · 29/08/2024 18:30

Dulra · 29/08/2024 17:55

Yes and the IDF haven't finished destroying Gaza yet so it's a bit premature to talk of a rebuild. Surely a ceasefire is the current priority....

Yes, the UN cannot even distribute aid in Gaza.

A ceasefire is the only path that will save lives now and in the future.

SharonEllis · 29/08/2024 18:29

ToBeDetermined · 29/08/2024 18:19

Suicide bombings of civilians targets are not legitimate resistance.
Just like the thousands of bombs dropped by IDF killing tens of thousands of civilians since Oct 2023 and before this bomb ever happened are not legitimate self defence.

I think the illegal occupation ending is the best chance for peace and security for Israel and Palestinians.

Violence only creates more violence. It is the violence of illegal occupation dating from 1948 that created fertile ground for formation of violent terrorist groups. It is the violence of responding to terrorism using Dahiya doctrine which is the disproportionate targeting and killing of innocent civilians that has not only dehumanised Palestinians and sent Israelis down the dark path of current genocidal, but perpetuates the cycle of violence and terror in the region.

The occupation cannot be ended by a negotiated process. If it could, it would have ended in 1998 when it was agreed to end in 1993.

I think you need to be more explicit. You date the 'illegal occupation' to 1948.

You say it 'ending' is the best chance of peace & security.

You say it cannot be ended by negotiation.

Exactly what occupation. If it doesnt end by a negotiated process how does it end?

What does peace & security look loke for Israrlis and Palestinians at the end?

ToBeDetermined · 29/08/2024 18:28

Miffylou · 29/08/2024 14:00

Of course I know when the elections were held. The last legislative elections were in 2006. That’s why I said "that’s not the fault of the women and children suffering in Gaza now".

The situation with the IRA was completely different. The IRA were not the government of Ireland.

Unfortunately, in modern wars nowadays civilians suffer. In WW2 the civilians in Germany suffered terribly from Allied bombing raids. Were those raids unjustified? When the D-Day landings took place in 1944, to liberate France from the Nazis, about 12,000 completely innocent French civilians died during the battles. Should the landings not have taken place?

If you read my earlier comment, and the one above from @SharonEllis , you will see that unlike you, the Hamas leadership doesn’t regret the deaths of Gazan civilians at all.

Edited

WWII was not a modern war. It predates the Geneva convention and modern international laws on the rules of war, including the law against genocide. Many attacks that were done during WWII would be considered unjustified and illegal today. Today’s laws were specifically written and agreed on by the UN to ensure that Never Again really meant never again for anyone. At least that was the intent. The consistent insistence on WWII as some sort of standard we should regress to is to scrap international law and go back to the days of WWII where millions can be murdered through genocide before anyone lifts a finger or spears out in condemnation instead of thousands.

ToBeDetermined · 29/08/2024 18:19

SharonEllis · 29/08/2024 05:53

Just to be clear, you believe suicide bombings against civilians are legitimate resistance? Remembering that in a so-called suicide bombing the bomber is killed. The Hamas/Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad/whoever leadership never conduct these attacks themselves, of course. https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-claims-tel-aviv-blast-as-attempted-suicide-bombing-vows-to-carry-out-more/
And, you think if Israel ended the occupation Hamas and Iran would cease their campaign to destroy Israel and kill all Jews? And that Israel would magically have security? The occupation will only end as part of a negiated process that ensures the security of both sides.

Suicide bombings of civilians targets are not legitimate resistance.
Just like the thousands of bombs dropped by IDF killing tens of thousands of civilians since Oct 2023 and before this bomb ever happened are not legitimate self defence.

I think the illegal occupation ending is the best chance for peace and security for Israel and Palestinians.

Violence only creates more violence. It is the violence of illegal occupation dating from 1948 that created fertile ground for formation of violent terrorist groups. It is the violence of responding to terrorism using Dahiya doctrine which is the disproportionate targeting and killing of innocent civilians that has not only dehumanised Palestinians and sent Israelis down the dark path of current genocidal, but perpetuates the cycle of violence and terror in the region.

The occupation cannot be ended by a negotiated process. If it could, it would have ended in 1998 when it was agreed to end in 1993.

Didshejustsaythatoutloud · 29/08/2024 18:14

BelleHathor · 29/08/2024 06:52

@Lettherebejustice

It's been 11 months now, you won't get a cohesive response. All there will be are variations of accusations unrelated to what you said.
Of course you are correct that the Palestinians right to resist occupation is enshrined in International Law and that the Israeli Government is and has long been in violation.

Sadly, Spot on

ToBeDetermined · 29/08/2024 18:09

SharonEllis · 29/08/2024 03:46

How would you deal with the terror threat in the West Bank?

The way international law and treaties say it should be done, as a task for law enforcement. By sending in the military to shoot, drones & fighter jets to bomb, military bulldozers to destroy roads and such Israel is essentially doing acts of war on the populace of the West Bank.

Dulra · 29/08/2024 17:55

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 29/08/2024 17:38

They haven't got a say in where they sleep at night or whether or not they can feed their children.

Yes and the IDF haven't finished destroying Gaza yet so it's a bit premature to talk of a rebuild. Surely a ceasefire is the current priority....

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 29/08/2024 17:38

SharonEllis · 29/08/2024 17:29

My words were carefully chosen. I said 'said some say in their government' I did not say a western style democratic election. Rubble aside its hard to do that in a country without democratic structures - Hamas arent so keen on democracy are they? Transition to democracy is a process

They haven't got a say in where they sleep at night or whether or not they can feed their children.

Dulra · 29/08/2024 17:33

SharonEllis · 29/08/2024 17:29

My words were carefully chosen. I said 'said some say in their government' I did not say a western style democratic election. Rubble aside its hard to do that in a country without democratic structures - Hamas arent so keen on democracy are they? Transition to democracy is a process

Your sentence was
People vote, not buildings. Surely Palestinians have some say in their government now?

Apologies if I picked it up wrong maybe reword it because I'm not the only one that assumed you were suggesting an election now.

SharonEllis · 29/08/2024 17:29

Dulra · 29/08/2024 17:25

Where did I say an election should be held in gaza right now?
Here
Surely Palestinians have some say in their government now?

My words were carefully chosen. I said 'said some say in their government' I did not say a western style democratic election. Rubble aside its hard to do that in a country without democratic structures - Hamas arent so keen on democracy are they? Transition to democracy is a process

Dulra · 29/08/2024 17:25

SharonEllis · 29/08/2024 17:21

Where did I say an election should be held in gaza right now? But if gaza is 'rubble' then it will take a long time to rebuild then how many years down the line do you think gazans should wait to have a say? And who decides in the meantime? Obviously cant be Hamas as we all agree they are genocidal terrorists, right?

Where did I say an election should be held in gaza right now?
Here
Surely Palestinians have some say in their government now?

SharonEllis · 29/08/2024 17:21

Dulra · 29/08/2024 16:49

People vote, not buildings. Surely Palestinians have some say in their government now?
You have to be joking? Are you suggesting an election can be held in Gaza now? Have you seen any images of Gaza right now? Israel won't let any Independent observers in to see what's going on but they'll let independent electoral observers in? I don't think you have any idea of the destruction in Gaza to even begin to think this even close to being possible.

Where did I say an election should be held in gaza right now? But if gaza is 'rubble' then it will take a long time to rebuild then how many years down the line do you think gazans should wait to have a say? And who decides in the meantime? Obviously cant be Hamas as we all agree they are genocidal terrorists, right?

SharonEllis · 29/08/2024 17:17

cupcaske123 · 29/08/2024 16:52

All of it.

Absolutely extraordinary.

BelleHathor · 29/08/2024 17:17

Scirocco · 29/08/2024 16:20

Over 40% of respondents to a recent survey did not think the rape of captured Palestinians warranted criminal charges. The Knesset has voted against a two-state solution. Elected politicians advocate for the desecration of Al-Aqsa and the destruction of Palestinian identity and society. Support for occupation appears a mainstream viewpoint. These are not things people should be ok with their governments facilitating.

One of the accused is now a TV star, he was invited on by Israeli Channel 14.
https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/1828337777131270384

x.com

https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/1828337777131270384

BelleHathor · 29/08/2024 17:15

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TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 29/08/2024 17:08

Dulra · 29/08/2024 16:49

People vote, not buildings. Surely Palestinians have some say in their government now?
You have to be joking? Are you suggesting an election can be held in Gaza now? Have you seen any images of Gaza right now? Israel won't let any Independent observers in to see what's going on but they'll let independent electoral observers in? I don't think you have any idea of the destruction in Gaza to even begin to think this even close to being possible.

I was thinking the exact same thing. What does that poster think is happening in Gaza that they can all trot off to the polls. Really strange post, it would make you wonder just how informed posters who jump in to defend Israel really are about what it is they are defending.

MissyB1 · 29/08/2024 17:06

And as far as I'm concerned America is up to their bloody necks in this genocide, and the UK are complicit to say the least. Disgusting.

Miffylou · 29/08/2024 16:55

cupcaske123 · 29/08/2024 16:52

All of it.

If you think everything I wrote is untrue, I suggest you do a lot of reading and research. You clearly know very little about the history of the Middle East.

cupcaske123 · 29/08/2024 16:52

Miffylou · 29/08/2024 16:50

Which bit is a delusion?

All of it.

cupcaske123 · 29/08/2024 16:52

SharonEllis · 29/08/2024 16:44

I didn't misunderstand you at all. I was pointing out that several parties in this conflict have genocidal intent, a point which is repeatedly overlooked.

Yes, of course a cessefire is essential. Both sides need to agree to one. Hamas has to release the hostages as the murders of 7 October & taking of the hostages precipitated this particular cycle of violence.

I have already said both sides need to do more.

People vote, not buildings. Surely Palestinians have some say in their government now?

I understand that people vote, but it will take time to rebuild.

Do you think it would help if Israel released the thousands of detainees held indefinitely in Israel? Perhaps that would be conducive in an exchange of hostages.

The thread is about whether Israel is doing enough to mitigate incitement to genocide. You seem to be denying that they are doing anything wrong. Do you think their retaliation has been proportionate?

Miffylou · 29/08/2024 16:50

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Which bit is a delusion?

Dulra · 29/08/2024 16:49

SharonEllis · 29/08/2024 16:44

I didn't misunderstand you at all. I was pointing out that several parties in this conflict have genocidal intent, a point which is repeatedly overlooked.

Yes, of course a cessefire is essential. Both sides need to agree to one. Hamas has to release the hostages as the murders of 7 October & taking of the hostages precipitated this particular cycle of violence.

I have already said both sides need to do more.

People vote, not buildings. Surely Palestinians have some say in their government now?

People vote, not buildings. Surely Palestinians have some say in their government now?
You have to be joking? Are you suggesting an election can be held in Gaza now? Have you seen any images of Gaza right now? Israel won't let any Independent observers in to see what's going on but they'll let independent electoral observers in? I don't think you have any idea of the destruction in Gaza to even begin to think this even close to being possible.

SharonEllis · 29/08/2024 16:49

Cecilly · 29/08/2024 15:57

@SharonEllis What do I think would happen if Israel stopped being defended? I guess the Israeli government would have to reconcile with their neighbours, give back the land they've taken from the Syrians and the Lebanese, and have a serious stab at making right all the wrongs they've done to the Palestinians. But I'm not lame enough to think that will happen.

No, what would happen is that their neighbours (not necessarily immediate neighbours) would destroy them. What do you think the iron dome is for? You really need to read a history book.

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 29/08/2024 16:45

A new government in Israel would help

The far-right religious and nationalist settler parties need to be totally scaled back to the point of near silence. This is the group pushing to legalise the weaponised rape of Palestinians. That, right there, is peak ‘malignancy of man’, something my father, who spent 4 years in a concentration camp, talked a lot about.

The far-right religious and nationalist settler parties are destroying Israel from within and silencing the left and centrist voices. Israel, in its current iteration, has lost its morality and its mind. Many Israelis would swiftly agree to this.

There is a current morality vacuum in Israel created by two things: Netanyahu’s disproportionate, genocidal response to the tragic October 7th terrorist attack on Israeli people; young, vibrant people with so much living to do. They must never get lost in the discussion, along with the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank.
The second factor in creating this moral vacuum is Netanyahu’s horrible failure to protect the Israeli people from Hamas. Full stop. October 7 highlighted Israeli intelligence’s complacency, bloated arrogance, and failure to properly function and protect its citizens.

October 7 was an intelligence failure of epic proportions, first and foremost.

To answer the question: Has Israel taken enough action to prevent alleged incitement to genocide?

I will only talk about Israel’s action since that is what the question is about (not Hamas.That’s for another thread).

How can Israel, under its current leadership, even contemplate taking such action when humanity, morality, and dignity no longer even occupy space in the Knesset?

While Israel, under Netanyahu, continues to bleed America dry for weapons and funding, and continues to intentionally block and destroy aid as well as endanger and contribute to the deaths of aid workers in Gaza, allow deadly outbreaks to flourish and spread in Gaza thus finishing off what the bombs and bullets miss, call death corridors ‘safe passages’ to the point that the true language around ‘safe passage’ doesn’t even get an honourable mention anywhere anymore, and while Israel relentlessly, viscously breaks international law left, right, and centre with zero fucks given about the consequences, disgracefully legitimises the Israeli military practice of raping Palestinian war prisoners, and while America (among plenty of other countries) continues to be complicit up to its eyeballs in the crimes against/genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza, the only action Israel knows how take is hostile, subversive action. “Genocide? What genocide? We’re simply engaging in a real estate dispute! It’s a little bit volatile but that’s because G-D’s on our side and these pesky Palestinians just won’t listen!”

SharonEllis · 29/08/2024 16:45

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Which bit is inaccurate?